Cohoon/Gary Debate on Satan

 
 
 Proposition: 
 The Scriptures teach all power is from God and believing in a 
powerful fallen angel named "Satan" is having another god beside 
God.

AFFIRM: James Gary
DENY: Bobby Cohoon

In my first affirmative I showed how God is the adversary or 
"satan" to His people when they walk contrary to them. While 
"Satan" apologists imply a fallen spiritual being is God's 
people' adversary, there is no statement in the Bible that says a 
fallen spiritual being was the adversary of anyone ever. I showed 
how taking God's position and giving it to something or someone else is making a god of that something or someone.

In my second affirmative I addressed some of the Scriptures 
"Satan" apologists use for their belief in a fallen spiritual 
being. I showed how none of the verses ever showed the words 
"Satan" or "Devil" were referring to a fallen spiritual being. To 
accept that those words do apply to such a creature one must have 
a preconceived belief that such a creature exists because the 
Bible never speaks of any such thing.

In my final affirmative I would like to deal with some of the 
suppositions "Satan" apologists employ to support a fallen 
spiritual being.  There are very many, but I will list what I 
believe to be the 20 most prominent suppositions and demonstrate 
how they are not what the "Satan" apologists say they are.  Keep 
in mind that one has to believe that a fallen spiritual being has 
been proven to exist and is named "Satan" or called "The Devil" 
in order for the "Satan" apologists to have any hope that these 
Scriptures prove such a creature.  When you read them read them 
as if you have never hear of "Satan" or "The Devil" and keep in 
mind that "satan" means adversary and "devil" means false 
accuser.  If you do that, I think it will come clear to  you that 
none of these verse or any other verses come even close to 
proving the "Satan" apologist's claim of a fallen spiritual 
being.

Supposition #1 - "Satan" doesn't want anyone to believe in "him."

If that is so and the "satan"/"devil" in the temptation of 
Christ, as recorded in the 4th chapter of Matthew is a fallen 
spiritual being, why would "he" want Christ to fall down and 
worship him (Mat 4:9)? How can you worship something you don't 
believe exists? Could we possibly worship God if we don't believe 
in Him?

Supposition #2 - "Satan" is called the "wicked one" in Mat 13:38.

Actually the word "one" is not in the MSS. It's in Italics in the 
KJV indicating it was added by the translators for clarity. Of 
course their "clarity" is dependant upon how they understood the 
Bible. That same Greek phrase, "tou ponerou", is simply 
translated "evil" in Mat 5:37; 6:13; 12:35; Luke 6:45; John 17:15 
& 2 Thes 3:3. So what Mat13:38 says, IMHO, is "the tares are the 
children of wickedness." And from where does Christ say 
"wickedness" comes? From inside a person (Mark 7:22). Not from a 
fallen spiritual being! What does the Bible (NASB) say is 
deceitful above "all else?" The heart! That is the flesh of 
"man!" That would include a fallen spiritual being.

Supposition #3 - "Satan" is called the "great dragon."

The term dragon, in Scripture refers to the government of man in 
opposition to God's government. We see that Pharaoh was called a 
"great dragon" (Eze 29:3) and the kingdom of Babylon is likened 
unto a dragon (Isa 51:34).

Supposition #4 - "Satan" is called the "serpent of old."

The term serpent is representative of man's government. We're, so 
often, told that the "serpent" in Gen 3 was a fallen spiritual 
being. But there's no mention of that in the passage. It's just 
something that's implied by the "fallen spiritual being" 
apologist. However we're told this "serpent" was of the "beast of 
the field" (Gen 3:1). That "he" had offspring just as the woman 
(Gen 3:15). What that serpent was is the first mentioned 
representative of the serpent religion, which is man's way in 
opposition to God's Way. Christ called those in His day, who had 
followed the traditions of men (Mat 15:2-6) serpents (Mat 23:33). 
They were not fallen spiritual beings. They were flesh and blood 
Israelites, namely Levites. Remember Christ told His people that 
the Pharisees sat in Moses' seat (Mat 23:2). What was this seat? 
It was the seat of the Law declarer. Moses declared observance to 
the Law of God (Deut 1:5; 4:1, 5-6). As Moses was a Levite, so 
was the priesthood Levitical (Num 3:11-13). This was the seat 
that the Pharisees sat in.

They were flesh and blood Israelites from the House of Judah. 
Could a non Israelite ever sit in Moses' seat under God's Law? Of 
course not! A stranger was not to rule over Israel (Deut 17:15). 
If it was against the Law for a non-Israelite to be over Israel 
how could a non-Israelite be recognized as legally being in 
Moses' seat by Christ? Notice that Christ told His people to not 
do as these "serpents" did, but to do what they bid them to 
OBSERVE. And what was it those who sat in Moses' seat bid them to 
observe? The Law of God of course (Acts 15:5, 21)!

These Israelites were said of Christ to be hypocrites, who shut 
up the kingdom of heaven against men and would not enter in 
themselves (Mat 23:13). They were flesh and blood Israelites that 
were in opposition to God. They taught man's way (Mat 15:9). This 
is what made them "serpents" just as the serpent person in Gen 
3:1, they were against God and taught mans' way. Remember these 
weren't actual flesh and blood children of a fallen spiritual 
being. Christ said they proselyted to make other flesh and blood 
Israelites three times the child of hell than themselves (Mat 
23:15). Does this not seem as though other Israelites can become 
children of hell by following the way of the Pharisees? So the 
terms used in Rev 12, "serpent" & "dragon" are all symbolic of 
man in his quest to be god in lieu of following God.

This would coincide with Rev 12 and the "satan" (adversary) and 
"devil" (false accuser) that's described by the terms "serpent" 
and "dragon." We see that this entity that is spoken of in Rev 12 
is a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns (Rev 12:3). Later in 
Revelation we see that this beast is actually identified. It is a 
construct of kingdoms of men in opposition to God (Rev 17:10-14). 
Again, we see those that use this Scripture as proof of a fallen 
spiritual being "satan" do so without ever showing where the 
Bible shows a fallen spiritual being. Instead we're are obviously 
suppose to just accept the unproven premise that the words 
"satan" and "devil" apply to such a creature without such a 
creature being substantiated.

Supposition #6 - Some Christians turn & follow Satan (I Tim 5:14-
16).

Does this mean some younger widows had actually joined a 
congregation of the devil in order to worship him? I don't think 
so. If we take this passage in its context we see what these 
younger widows did in order to follow the devil:

(1 Tim 5:13 NASB) "And at the same time they also learn to be 
idle, as they go around from house to house; and not merely idle, 
but also gossips and busybodies, talking about things not proper 
to mention."

What is "gossip?" And what are "busybodies?" They are slanderers 
and false witnesses/accusers! We see that the word "devil" is 
properly translated (malicious gossisp) when reprimanding people 
who do this:

(Titus 2:3 NASB) "Older women likewise are to be reverent in 
their behavior, not malicious gossips, nor enslaved to much wine, 
teaching what is good,"

(1 Tim 3:11 NASB) "Women must likewise be dignified, not 
malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things."

That's how these women follow "satan" or the "adversary." 
Remember Christ said "false witness" or "malicious gossip", if 
you will, and slanders comes from inside a person (Mat 15:19). So 
if a young widow follows "satan" or the adversary, she's giving 
into the flesh. Not some fallen spiritual being!

Supposition #7 - Many demons can possess a man.  One demon can be 
cast out of a man and bring more demons back to possess that man 
again (Mat 12:43-45).

Some, in this passage see Christ saying the spirit, that went out 
of the man, walks through dry places seeking rest and finds none, 
but I believe He's saying that the man from whom the unclean 
spirit was removed does this.  Do spirits "walk"?   Do they need 
to?  Do they need "rest"?  What are "dry" places to a demon, if 
indeed that's what an unclean spirit is?

If we take this verse by verse I think we'll come up with 
something totally different than a "demon."

(Mat 12:43 NASB)  ""Now when the unclean spirit goes out of a 
man, it passes through waterless places, seeking rest, and does 
not find it."

Here we see Christ saying when "the unclean spirit" goes out of a 
man.  Now what is the unclean spirit?  Is it not any spirit that 
defiles a man?  (Mat 15:18 KJV)  "But those things which proceed 
out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the 
man."

(Prov 15:28 KJV)  "The heart of the righteous studieth to answer: 
but the mouth of the wicked poureth out evil things."

So when a man's spirit is cleaned or the unclean spirit leaves a 
man it doesn't have to mean a "demon".

Some examples of unclean spirits are a spirit of infirmity (Luke 
13:11), a spirit of divination (Acts 16:16), a spirit of bondage 
(Rom 8:15), a spirit of slumber (Rom 11:8), a spirit of the world 
(1 Cor 2:11), a spirit of fear (2 Tim 1:7), a spirit of 
antichrist (1 John 4:3) and a spirit of error (1 John 4:6).

So when we see Christ saying "when an unclean spirit goes out of 
a man....",  could He simply be speaking of a man that has had 
his uncleaned spirit removed?

Next Christ says:

(Mat 12:43 KJV)  "...he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, 
and findeth none."

Is Christ speaking of the unclean spirit seeing rest and walking 
in dry places?  Or is He speaking of the man?  Do demons walk in 
dry places seeking rest?  I wouldn't think so!

What is a dry place as per the Bible?  Is it not a place or land 
where God's Word is not found? Does not the word "water" 
symbolize the Word of God?:

(Psa 63:1 KJV)  "A Psalm of David, when he was in the wilderness 
of Judah. O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee: my soul 
thirsteth for thee, my flesh longeth for thee in a dry and 
thirsty land, where no water is;"

(Psa 143:6 KJV)  "I stretch forth my hands unto thee: my soul 
thirsteth after thee, as a thirsty land. Selah."

(John 7:37-38 KJV)  "...Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man 
thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. {38} He that believeth 
on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow 
rivers of living water."

Would a demon be looking for the Word of God?  I don't think so.

Would a demon need "rest"?  Would a man?  What does "rest" 
symbolize in the Bible?  Does it not symbolize putting on the 
yoke of Christ?:

(Mat 11:29 KJV)  "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I 
am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find >>>rest<<< unto 
your souls."

Would a demon that has been "cast" out of a man or the man who 
has had an unclean spirit healed, need the Words of God and need 
to put on the yoke of Christ?

And did not Jesus say this man looking for God and Christ didn't 
find it?:

(Mat 12:43 KJV)  "...findeth none."

What did Christ say the man did then?  Did He not say that he 
would go back to his "house?"

(Mat 12:44 KJV)  "Then he saith, I will return into my house from 
whence I came out..."

And in what shape did he find his home?  Was it not clean, 
decorated and EMPTY?:

(Mat 12:44 KJV)  "...he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished."

What was it empty of?  What was the man looking for?  Was it not 
God's Word and Christ?  But he obviously didn't find it in his 
"house":

(Mat 12:44 KJV)  "Then he saith, I will return into my house from 
whence I came out;

and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished."

As nature abhors a vacuum and this man did not find God or Christ 
anywhere he was, did he not, like the dog to its vomit, return to 
the evil he previously knew?:

(Mat 12:45 KJV)  "Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven 
other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and 
dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the 
first...

Is not seven a symbolic number for Godly punishment for sinning?:

(Lev 26:21 KJV)  "And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not 
hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you 
according to your sins."

And doesn't the Bible say that someone returning to the "world" 
has and end worse than the beginning:

(2 Pet 2:20 KJV)  "For if after they have escaped the pollutions 
of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus 
Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the 
latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

So I submit to you that this passage isn't about "demons" but a 
parallel between a man that has learned the truth and been 
cleaned from his uncleaness and did not find God anywhere he went 
and returned to his former evil ways and he was worse off than he 
ever was.  And Christ is comparing that to the wicked generation 
of His day.

They have an unclean spirit removed from them in the removing 
Judaism from "Moses seat" (Mat 21:43; 23:1, ) and yet they 
received Him not (John 1:11).  And instead sought to kill Him and 
His followers.

Supposition #8 - "Satan" puts into the heart of men to do evil 
even to the extent of betraying the Son of God (John 13:2).

Again we're obviously simply expected to believe the word "devil" 
here refers to a fallen spiritual being. However we know that 
those who accused Christ, were those of the Sanhedrin (John 
11:47-53) and they made their plans with Judas (Mat 26:14-16). So 
we see that the false accuser was the Sanhedrin and not some 
fallen spiritual being.

Supposition #9 - "Satan" can oppress some to the point that they 
need healing (Acts 10:38-39).

Again, we do not see any mention of a fallen spiritual being. 
Only those "oppressed" by a "diabolos." And since the flesh or 
the law of sin in the flesh (Rom 7:23) causes people to be sick 
because of their breaking of God's Laws (Psalms 107:17), then 
they would need healing of the false accuser. After all it's God 
that sends diseases (Lev 14:34; Isa 3:17). Do we give this power 
of God to a fallen spiritual being? I surely don't!

Supposition #10 - If you let the sun go down on your anger you 
give the devil an opportunity (Eph 4:25-28).

But what is the "devil" here? We have seen that the Greek word 
"diablolos" is used to define flesh and blood people. Yet it 
seems we're to just assume that the word here means a fallen 
spiritual being. Lets analyze the passage above please:

NAS Ephesians 4:26 Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the 
sun go down on your anger, 27 and do not give the devil an 
opportunity.

What I see being said here is one can be angry without sinning, 
but by not dealing with the anger promptly and properly one risks 
sinning because of that anger. That is what gives the "devil" an 
opportunity. What is sin? Christ told the Jews if they sin they 
are the slave of sin (John 8:34). Paul said Israelites should not 
let sin reign in their bodies else they would be obeying the 
lusts of that body (Rom 6:12). Paul said you are the slave of 
whom you obey whether sin unto death or righteousness (Rom 6:16). 
Notice that Paul nor Christ say nothing of obeying a fallen 
spiritual being.

Paul said if you live after the flesh you will die (Rom 8:13). He 
said we must not fulfill the LUSTS of the flesh (Rom 13:14). He 
said that's why you must walk in the Spirit (Gal 5:16). He said 
the people of God crucify the flesh and its LUSTS (Gal 5:24). He 
said that's what the people of God were doing before their 
conversion. Fulfilling the desires of the flesh (Eph 2:3). He 
said it was these LUSTS that corrupted them (Eph 4:22).

James said every man is tempted by his own LUSTS (James 1:14). He 
said wars and fighting comes from the LUST of the flesh (James 
4:1). Peter warned God's people to abstain from fleshly LUSTS (1 
Pet 2:11). He said God's people should develop the mind of Christ 
and overcome the lusts of the flesh (1 Pet 4:1-3), which Christ 
did in His temptation of Mat 4.

Christ said all manner of evil comes from the within or the flesh 
(Mat 15:19; Mark 7:21-23). That includes "lying" and murder. 
That's why Christ told the Jews in John 8 that their Spiritual 
father was the devil or "false accuser" who was a liar and a 
murderer from the beginning (John 8:44). Which Christ said of the 
flesh in Mat 15:19 & Mark 7:21-23.

Supposition #11 - "Satan" has schemes against us, i.e. he schemes 
against us (Eph 6:11-12).

Actually, the word translated "schemes" in Eph 6:11 is defined by 
Thayer's Greek Dictionary as "deceive." So the verse is speaking 
of the "deceits" of the "false accuser." And Christ said "deceit" 
comes from within (Mark 7:21-23). Remember Paul said the "law of 
sin" in his members or flesh warred against the Law of God in his 
mind (Rom 7:18, 23). He said his mind served the Law of God, but 
his flesh served the "law of sin" (Rom 7:25). So I suppose since 
these two laws are fighting each other, there is a "scheme" there 
by one to overcome the other. However, there is no mention of a 
fallen spiritual being here. You will notice that Paul never 
blames a fallen spiritual being for his wrong-doing, but the "law 
of sin" in his flesh (Rom 7:20-21).

Supposition #12 - "Satan" is able to ensnare & hold people 
captive to do his will (II Tim 2:25-26).

Once again there is no evidence this "devil" is a fallen 
spiritual being. However, this "devil" is said to make slaves of 
people. This passage says they are captives of this "devil." And 
what did Christ say one who sinned was the servant of? Sin (John 
8:34)! If one serves sin then does not that one do the will of 
sin (Rom 6:16)?

Supposition #13 - "Satan" is like a roaring lion seeking someone 
to devour (I Peter 5:8-9).

What is actually said here is "your adversary" the "devil" is AS 
a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Does this verse say a 
fallen spiritual being is one's adversary? No! But we're given 
examples of what a "roaring lion" is likened to in the Bible. We 
see that a wicked ruler is AS a roaring lion (Prov 20:2; 28:15). 
The adversary of David was as "roaring lions" (Psalms 22:12-13). 
So we see the Bible shows "roaring lions" to be of flesh and 
blood origin. And being such an adversary, would make them 
"devils" or "false accusers."

Supposition #14 - "Satan" deceives, i.e. he is capable of 
deceiving the whole world (Rev 12:8-9).

I have already shown that this "devil" is nothing more than a 
conglomeration of man's governments in opposition to God. I would 
say that the government of the USA is a perfect example of a 
government in opposition to God deceiving its people. BTW, I 
believe a close study of the word "world" as it's translated from 
the Greek word "kosmos" will reveal that it can only apply to 
Israel. But regardless, the governments of men, in opposition to 
God, have been deceiving the inhabitants of the planet earth 
since men have been on earth. There's no mention of a fallen 
spiritual being here.

Supposition #15 - "Satan" can sift people like sifting wheat 
(Luke 22:31-33).

Jesus doesn't say a fallen spiritual being wished to sift Peter. 
He says the adversary did. And who was their adversary at this 
time? The Sanhedrin! The Jews! And what does "sift" mean? It 
means to separate something from something else just as the chaff 
is separated from the wheat. The enemy of Christ, the Jews in 
power in Jerusalem, wished to separate the disciples from Christ 
and His Gospel. After the adversary, the priests and elders of 
the people came (Mat 26:47) and took Christ, all of His disciples 
fled from Him (Mat 26:57). And after His death they were all 
hiding together for fear of the Jews (John 20:19).

Remember, in this passage, Christ said, '"But I have prayed for 
thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, 
strengthen thy brethren (Luke 22:32)."

What happened after Christ's death? The Apostles went preaching 
the Gospel and Christ to the lost sheep of Israel. And they were 
confronted on every side by the Jews who hated them. Peter was 
constantly in trouble with them as were all the Apostles and 
disciples of Christ (Acts 6:9-12; 7:54-60;11:2; 12:1-5; 13:50; 
14:2; 17:5; 21:27-33).

So I see Jews, not a fallen spiritual being "devil" sifting Peter 
and the disciples of Christ.

Supposition #16 - "Satan" can fill your heart to lie to the Holy 
Spirit (Acts 5:3).

From where does Christ say "false witness" comes? From within, 
the "heart" of a person (Mat 15:18-19), not from some fallen 
spiritual being. And what does the Bible say is more deceitful 
than anything else? The heart (Jer 17:9)! And if the heart is 
deceitful over all things, what need is there for a fallen 
spiritual being to put deceits into a person? And wouldn't the 
"heart" be the adversary or "satan" to someone in the position of 
Acts 5:3? No fallen spiritual being mentioned here!

Supposition #17 - "Satan" has a dominion known as the dominion of 
darkness (Acts 26:16-18).

Heres that Scripture:

(Acts 26:16-18 NASB) "'But arise, and stand on your feet; for 
this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister 
and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but 
also to the things in which I will appear to you; {17} delivering 
you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am 
sending you, {18} to open their eyes so that they may turn from 
darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order 
that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance 
among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'"

Now lets look at the literal translation of Young's:

YLT Acts 26:16 but rise, and stand upon thy feet, for for this I 
appeared to thee, to appoint thee an officer and a witness both 
of the things thou didst see, and of the things in which I will 
appear to thee, 17 delivering thee from the people, and the 
nations, to whom now I send thee, 18 to open their eyes, to turn 
them from darkness to light, and from the authority of the 
Adversary unto God, for their receiving forgiveness of sins, and 
a lot among those having been sanctified, by faith that is toward 
me.

As you can see, this "satan" is literally an "adversary", not 
some fallen spiritual being. What is the result of turning the 
people unto God? To receive forgiveness of sins or sinlessness. 
This would be, as a matter of necessity, the dominion or 
authority of life because it means one that doesn't sin doesn't 
break God's Law (1 John 3:4). Which means one keeps God's Law. 
Christ said to enter into life one must keep the Law of God (Mat 
19:17). This is the dominion or authority of God. The dominion of 
Life. Therefore the dominion or authority of the adversary is one 
of sin. That means that dominion is one of death because the 
wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23).

Paul said the fleshly body was a body of death (Rom 7:24). He 
said the reason was because in his fleshly body was the "law of 
sin". He said this "law of sin", not some fallen spiritual being, 
warred against the Law of God in his mind (Mat 7:23).

Christ said the dominion of death was a dominion of darkness 
(Acts 26:18). He also said that the fleshly body, not some fallen 
spiritual being, was full of darkness when one's "eye" is evil 
(Luke 11:34). He said men love darkness because their deeds or 
"works" are evil (John 3:19). Since the Law is light (Pro 6:23) 
then doing the Law does deeds of light. And not doing the Law or 
breaking it does deeds of evil or sin. And we're told it's the 
flesh that hates God and is not subject to God's Law (Rom 8:7). 
James said when a man sins it's because he is led away of his own 
lust, not a fallen spiritual being (James 1:14). He said sin 
comes when one's lust has been conceived (James 1:15). It's the 
flesh, not a fallen spiritual being that fights against God (Gal 
5:17). Sin is darkness! And breaking the Law is sin. The Law is 
truth (119:142, 151). Those that do not keep the Law have not the 
truth (1 John 2:4). So, by contrast, if you have not truth, you 
don't have light, but darkness (1 John 1:6). The dominion of 
darkness is the dominion of the flesh, not some fallen spiritual 
being.

Supposition #18 - We can be ignorant of his schemes (II Cor 2:10-
11).

I agree since the heart is deceitful above all things and no one 
can know it (Jer 17:9). There is no fallen spiritual being here 
either.

Supposition #19 - "Satan" disguises himself as an angel of light 
(II Cor 11:12-15).

Isn't that what governments of man, which I have shown the Bible 
shows as a roaring lion in opposition to God do? Don't so many of 
man's government pretend to be followers of Christ? Doesn't 
George W. Bush? What president, of the USA has not claimed to be 
a follower of Christ? They pretend to care for you and pass laws 
to protect you and to be your savior. There's no fallen spiritual 
being here. Only men pretending to be followers of Christ in 
total opposition to Him.

Supposition #20 - "Power", "Signs", & "False Wonders" can be 
performed by Satan (II Thes 2:9-10).

What is it that God puts down when His Kingdom is established? 
Man's government in opposition to God! Is not man's way an 
adversary of God's Way? Please take a look at the above in its 
context:

(2 Th 2:7-12 NASB) "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at 
work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out 
of the way. {8} And then that lawless one will be revealed whom 
the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an 
end by the appearance of His coming; {9} that is, the one whose 
coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power 
and signs and false wonders, {10} and with all the deception of 
wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the 
love of the truth so as to be saved. {11} And for this reason God 
will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might 
believe what is false, {12} in order that they all may be judged 
who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."

Please notice that it is those of lawlessness or sin that will be 
slain or destroyed. And those of sin is in accord with being the 
adversary of God. And God is going to destroy this evil with all 
power, signs, false wonders and all the deception of wickedness. 
Yes it's God, not some fallen spiritual being that uses false 
wonders and deceptions to destroy the evil. That's why v.11 says 
God will send delusion or deception so they will believe falsely. 
It's not a fallen spiritual being doing the deceiving here. It's 
God Himself. As God became a "satan" to David (2 Sam 24:1; 1 
Chron 21:1), God becomes a "satan" or an adversary to those who 
refuse Him.

As you can see none of the verse above have anything to do with a 
fallen spiritual being.  To simply proclaim they do just because 
the words "satan" and "devil" are used is circular reasoning 
because no fallen spiritual being has been established from the 
pages of the Bible.

Now I would like to address some of Mr. Cohoon's statements in 
his last denial.

Mr. Cohoon said 
"Why would God tell himself that He, God, has a hedge of 
protection around Job..."

For the life of me I can't understand why Mr. Cohoon thinks I am 
saying God was "The Adversary" in the book of Job.  I am not 
saying that.   Yes God did become an adversary to Job, but He was 
not "the adversary" or "satan" spoken of that came before Him 
along with the sons of God.  This is the second time I have 
explained this.

Mr. Cohoon said 
"Every translation, except Lamsa, does not use the word lunatic 
for "devil."

When Mr. Lamsa used the word "lunatics" so that the proper 
thought might be ascertained. The proper understanding must be 
taken within the context of the event as told in the three Gospel 
accounts.  The fact of the matter is what was cast out of the men 
was a single "devil" each:

(Luke 8:29 KJV)  "(For he had commanded the unclean spirit to 
come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him and he was 
kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, 
and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)"

(Mark 5:8 KJV)  "For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou 
unclean spirit."

Christ heals them!  Here we see Christ addressing the problem 
with the men as an unclean spirit (singular) and not as many 
fallen spiritual beings.  Also we see that Christ is speaking to 
the men and not demons.  Luke says this unclean spirit (singular) 
many times caught the man and he would be put in bonds, but he, 
not demons would break those bonds and the unclean spirit 
(singular) would drive him into the wilderness.

Still we do not see but one unclean spirit in each of the two 
men.

(Mark 5:9 KJV)  "And he asked him, What is thy name? And he 
answered, saying, My name is Legion for we are many."

(Luke 8:30 KJV)  "And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? 
And he said, Legion because many devils were entered into him."

Jesus is still speaking to the man here and asked, "what are you 
called."  The man answers saying "I am called legion for we are 
many." The  Greek word translated "name" here is defined as 
"called" or "name" and is translated "called" in Luke 24:13; Acts 
8:9; 9:11; 10:1.  This is not a fallen spiritual being speaking.  
Since we know two men approached Jesus and He healed many 
demoniacs, could these men not have been referring to how many 
other demoniacs or lunatics were with them in the tombs and there 
about?  After all does not the Bible show Christ healing many 
people from "unclean spirits?"

We know that these men had only a single unclean spirit or 
"devil" just as Luke 8:29 and Mark 5:2, 8, 15, 16 & 18 show. 
However, I believe there is another explanation for one of the 
men saying he had "many" in him.  I think that the "legion" was 
not a pile of "fallen spiritual beings" in one man, but that one 
of the men thought he was of "possessed" of "many" one at a 
time.  Notice what Luke said in Luke 8:29

(Luke 8:29 KJV) "(For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come 
out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him and he was kept 
bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was 
driven of the devil into the wilderness.)"

As you can see this is one "spirit" being "cast out", not many.  
I have gone through this line for line verse for verse and shown 
how Christ was talking to the men and not fallen spiritual 
beings.  No where do any of the passages that deal with this 
subject identify the "demons" as fallen spiritual beings.  No 
where do they show fallen spiritual beings or anything else 
possessing them.  Entering into a herd of something does not mean 
the herd is possessed.  One can enter into a herd of cows in 
order to single out one cow for branding.  One does not enter 
into a herd of cows to possess them.

When Christ said He chose a devil as an Apostle (John 6:70), do 
you think He chose a fallen spiritual being as an Apostle?  When 
Chirst called Peter "satan" (Mat 16:23), do you think Christ was 
talking to a fallen spiritual being?  Of course not!  The same is 
true of the verses you speak of concerning the "Legion."   The 
man was known as a "devil" because of how he acted.  Else you 
have a contradiction in the Scriptures that show that Christ only 
healed the man of one unclean spirit.  Which do you think it is?  
Don't forget that the KJV also equates "devil-possession" with 
being a lunatic (Mat 17:15-18).

Mr. Cohoon said 
"Lamsa had an idea and translated the Bible to stand up to his 
idea. Instead of translating what was written, he translated what 
he wanted to be written..."

Actually I think that's the reason the KJV translators translated 
the verses as they did because they believed in a fallen 
spiritual being.

Mr. Cohoon said 
"I have never maintained that God needed Satan. The world would 
have been better off had Satan not fallen. But, the simple fact 
is he did and we have. Who needs him? No one."

If God doesn't need "him", why does he keep "him" around?  Are 
you saying that God didn't plan for "Satan" to fall, but since he 
did, He's just letting him hang around and harass people for the 
"heck" it?  What purpose does this creature serve?

Mr. Cohoon said, 
"The law of sin introduced in Genesis 3 by a fallen spiritual 
being Known as  Satan."

But Gen 3 never says that.  It never identifies the serpent as a 
fallen spiritual being nor does it say this being introduced a 
law, the "law of sin" to God's people.  It never even mentions 
anyone named "Satan."  Just as in the concept of this so-called 
"fallen spiritual being", most things concerning it have to be 
taken for granted else the whole thing comes undone.

On Luke 10:17 you wrote "As I understand it, those who hold to a 
fallen spiritual "satan" contend that this "satan" fell long 
before man was created.  If that is what you believe, can you 
explain why Christ would have responded to the disciples' 
statement of "even the devils are subject unto us through thy 
name" (Luke 10:17), at least thousands of years after the fact?"

Concerning my question of why Christ would reply to His Apostles 
who had just returned from a commission saying, "even the devils 
are subject unto us through thy name" by saying to them "I beheld 
Satan as lightning fall from heaven" said "Does this verse at 
anytime say when Jesus saw Satan fall?" Jesus being active in the 
creation was there from the beginning and could have seen Satan 
fall at anytime before his, Christ, incarnation. No?

I understand what you mean, but why would Christ pick this time 
and place to make this statement?

Mr. Cohoon states 
"If the New Covenant came in at that time, why did Christ have to 
be sacrificed? Was not the New Covenant the blood of Christ? You 
have the New Covenant coming in before Christ was sacrificed. Did 
the verse in Luke 10:17 happen before or after the writing of 
Hebrews? The writer of Hebrews wrote "n that he saith, A new 
Couenant, he hath made the first olde. Now that which decayeth 
and waxeth old, is readie to vanish away" (Hebrews 8:13 KJV 
1611). The Old Covenant was still intact here, but it was ready 
to vanish. The Old Jewish system only passed away in AD 70. Did 
Luke 10:17 happen in AD 70?"

The redemption price was Christ's blood that ushered in the New 
Covenant.  Why?  Because Israel had been divorced by God (Jer 
3:8).  She was outside a covenantal (marriage) relationship with 
God.  She could not be remarried by God because she had defiled 
herself and the Law forbade it (Deut 24:4).

However, God foretold the day would come when He would, once 
again be married to Israel (Hosea 2:19-20).  That was done via of 
the death of Christ, who is God.  Paul put it this way:

(Rom 7:4 KJV)  "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead 
to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to 
another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should 
bring forth fruit unto God."

Becoming dead to the Law of marriage and divorce does not mean 
the Law of God was done away.  It means the death of Christ 
cleansed His people from their defilement via the New Covenant 
(Eph 5:25-26).  We know the New Covenant was in effect when John 
went baptizing for the remission of sins since that is the 
requirement of the New Covenant.  It was legitimate because 
Christ had John baptize Him.  Not for the forgiveness of sins, 
but to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

And the OC passed away when Christ sent out His seventy 
disciples  telling them to "harvest" His people (Luke 10: 1-2).  
He told them to heal the sick and to tell them that the Kingdom 
of God had come unto them (Luke 10:11).  Christ had made good on 
His promise that the Kingdom would be taken from the House of 
Judah and given to a nation bringing forth the fruit of it.

The verse you gave in Heb 8:13 does not say the OC was still in 
effect.  It meant whatever is old and useless would pass away.  
If it was still in effect the next few verses following this one 
would not have spoken of it in the past tense in such words as 
"had" and "was."

Mr. Cohoon, when asked whom or what Christ was casting out in Mat 
12:24 said "Devils, demons, those that fell with Satan and 
continued with him."

This is supposition and nothing more.  The passage does not say 
Christ was casting out fallen spiritual beings.  It said He 
HEALED a man of "devils" that made him blind and dumb.  As soon 
as he was healed the man could see and speak.  Do you really 
believe that blindness and dumbness comes from a fallen spiritual 
being?

Mr. Cohoon said, 
"You asked a series of questions. I asked a series that were 
never answered."

If I didn't answer any of your questions, it was by oversight.  I 
went through each and every thing you presented and countered 
it.  At least I thought I did and I can't seem to find where I 
failed to answer your questions.

Mr. Cohoon, when asked "Do you believe people whose father is a 
spiritual fallen being can be disciples of Christ" said 
"Yes. For God sent not his Sonne into the world to condemne the  
world: but that the world through him might be saued (John 
3:17)."

But God doesn't even all everyone (Mat 22:14).  Just "many!"

Mr. Cohoon, when asked "Was Christ just playing a mind game here 
or did He truly mean these Jews need to be set free of 
something?  Was Christ telling people whose father was a 
spiritual fallen angel they could have Him since He is the truth 
(John 14:6)" said 
"Christ would only be playing mind games if he were in fact the 
Adversary as well as the Savior. The position you hold is one of 
mind games."

I never said Christ was the adversary to these Jews or anyone 
else.  I said Christ was tempted by His flesh.   If you don't 
think so, please tell us how Christ was tempted.

Mr. Cohoon, when asked "Do you believe children of a spiritual 
fallen would say they were never in captivity to any man? Was 
this bondage in the past or the present" said 
"Jesus said they were of their father, the devil, who was the 
father of lies. Does not this answer from them bear that out? 
They had been in bondage, slavery, throughout their history, No? 
Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, Herod. Who do you believe Jesus or 
them?"

The question was not about the captivity of Israel by any nation 
long before.  It was about the present as Christ was saying they 
would be set free.  That's why the Jews said they were never in 
captivity to any man.  Not in their life times.  I believe both 
Christ and the Jews because they were speaking of two different 
things.  Christ was speaking of their captivity to sin and the 
Jews were speaking of being in bondage to men in their lifetimes.

Mr. Cohoon, when asked "Why would Christ tell them they were in 
bondage to sin since sin is the breaking of God's Law (1 John 3:4)" said 
"I refer you to Genesis 3 where a fallen spiritual being 
introduced the breaking of God's law to man."

That's not what Gen 3 says.  It says a "serpent" enticed Eve.  It 
says nothing of a fallen spiritual being.  You simply insinuate 
that part.

Mr. Cohoon, when asked "Have children of a fallen spiritual being 
ever been in such a house with Christ" said 
"For all haue sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 
3:23 KJV 1611)"

But can people who serve a fallen spiritual being be in the same 
House with Christ?

Mr. Cohoon, when asked "If these Jews are the children of a 
fallen spiritual being why is Christ stressing their believing in 
Him so they might be free" said 
"God alone is the author of salvation. Do you believe that one 
who has followed a path of sin can be saved? Note the word in 
John 3:16 "whosoever" that signifies freewill. Being children of 
a fallen spiritual being is the equivalent of following the ways 
of or the influence of Satan: living in sin. Those who are living 
lives of sin are separated from God, thus they are children of 
Satan."

Of course I believe sinners can be saved.  Christ didn't say 
these people were in bondage to a fallen spiritual being, but to 
sin (Jon 8:24, 34). He never identified "the devil" as a fallen 
spiritual being, but one that was a liar and a murderer from the 
beginning.  Where does Christ say lies and murders come from?  
The flesh (Mat 15:19-20; Mark 7:21-13).  For the record, I surely 
don't believe the word "whosoever" signifies freewill.

Mr. Cohoon, when asked "Did not Christ tell these Jews in verses 
31 & 32 that if they continued doing what they were doing, that 
is believing in Him they would have truth" said 
"Jesus told the Jews that believed in Him. You have to keep in 
mind that knowing who Jesus is one thing, but Jesus was telling 
them that they must not just know who he is, but they must 
continue to walk in His ways.  I refer you to 1 John where John 
discusses sin and Habitual sin."

In other words they must stop sinning which come from the flesh 
which contains the "law of sin" (Rom 7:18-25).  Not come out from 
the clutches of a fallen spiritual being!

Mr. Cohoon, when asked "Do you disagree that Christ said these 
Jews were sinners" said 
"no, I refer you to Romans 3:23 quoted earlier."

Doesn't this mean that they were servants of sin as Paul states 
in Rom 6:16? And if so, and Christ told them they were in bondage 
to sin, how can they be in bondage to a fallen spiritual being?

Mr. Cohoon, when asked "Can one be slave to a descendant that's 
been long dead before ones great-great-great grandfather was 
born? If not how could these Jews be slaves to Abraham when he 
was no longer alive" said 
"They answered, and said vnto him, Abraham is our father. Iesus 
sayth vnto them, If yee were Abrahams children, ye would doe the 
works of Abraham." If they were the children of Abraham they 
would act as Abraham acted, they would reflect Abraham as Jesus 
is the image of the Father, GOD."

But Christ already admitted they were Abraham's children (John 
8:37, 56).  Christ was speaking of what or who these Jews were 
spiritually serving.  He had already told them what that was.  It 
was sin and not a fallen spiritual being.

Mr. Cohoon, when asked "If Christ was not sent to anyone except 
Israel (Mat 15:24), why is He giving truth to children of a 
fallen spiritual being" said 
"Were not these children of a fallen spiritual being the children 
of Israel? You are equating father as in a biological father and 
a spiritual father as being one in the same. Can one who sins, 
thus following the influence of Satan, not be a child of Israel 
also?

Yes they were the Children of Israel.  No I'm not equating 
spiritual father with physical father.  I am simply showing that 
the "devil" that Christ spoke of, that was the father of these 
people was sin which is due to the law of sin in the flesh.

Mr. Cohoon, when asked "Why did the Jews change their response to 
Christ's statement about who their father is from Abraham to God 
if their physical lineage was the subject" said 
"Note that they say "We be not borne of fornication." They are a 
pure line. They are decended from Abraham, through Sarah (Born of 
the promise and not the law). Thus, they have the same spiritual 
father: GOD."

But Christ said God wasn't their father.  He said "the devil 
was."

Mr. Cohoon, when asked "Is Christ speaking of a physical lineage 
here" said 
"In either case spiritual or physical they said they were of God, 
yet Jesus says if they were of God they would love Him."

Of course!  They were not of God in the sense they did not do His 
works, but served the flesh, "the devil", which is properly 
defined as the "false accuser."  Christ said "false witness" came 
from within a man (mat 15:19).

Mr. Cohoon, when asked "Could it be the reason there's so much 
confusion on these very verses that the same quandary exists 
today" said 
"I don't see the confusion of these verses."

Then is Christ saying these Jews were servants of sin or a fallen 
spiritual being?

Mr. Cohoon responded to the statement: "Does not the Bible say 
"lusts", lies, false accusations and murders come from within a 
person (Mat 15:18-20)?  If so, then the "father" of these Jews 
must have been their flesh" by saying 
"Why do you insist on not reading what the scriptures say: Ye are 
of your father the deuill, and the lusts of your father ye will 
doe (John 8:44).

Where does the Bible says lusts are located?  The flesh (Rom 
13:14).  If Christ says murders and false witness comes from 
within (Mat 15:18-20) and says these are lusts and lusts are 
located in the flesh and there's nothing said of a fallen 
spiritual being in that verse, I must wonder why you don't 
believe what the Scriptures say.  Does not the Bible say those 
who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its affections and 
lusts.

Mr. Cohoon said, 
"I could say that each of the fruit of the spirit come from 
within a person, does that make one who displays the fruit have a 
father of the flesh also? For man looketh on the outward 
appearance, but the Lord looketh on the Heart (1 Sam. 16:7)."

No it doesn't make one who's fruit is of the Spirit have a 
spiritual father of the flesh .  Only those who obey the flesh do 
not exhibit the fruit of the spirit (Mat 7:18-20).

Mr. Cohoon, when asked "Would Judaism, not only today, but in 
Christ's day be an adversary of God and true Christianity in that 
it denies our God" 
said "Christianity was not around at the time of Job."

Sure it was!  We know that Christ said Abraham saw His day (John 
8:56). We know that Christ said He told Abraham the truth of God 
(John 8:40).  We know that it was Christ that was with Israel 
when they came out of Egypt (1 Cor 10:1-4).  We know that these 
Israelites tempted Christ and were destroyed by serpents (1 Cor 
10:9).  We know that Moses was reproached by Christ (Heb 11:26).  
We know that the spirit of Christ was in God's people in the OT 
(1 Pet 1:10-11).

Who could these attributes apply to other than the God of the 
"Old Testament?"  Who was it that taught truth to Abraham?  God 
(Gen 12:1-2)!  Who was it that with Israel with they came out of 
Egypt?  God (Ex 13:9)!  Who destroyed Israel with serpents?  God 
(Num 21:6).  Who was it that reproached Moses?  God (Num 20:12). 
Whose spirit filled God's people in th OT?  God's (Ex 31:3).

If God's people followed Christ and tempted Him and Moses chose 
to be reproached because of Christ and Christ's spirit filled 
God's prophets and the word Christ simply means a follower of 
Christ, would you agree that Christianity existed long before 
Judaism?

Mr. Cohoon, when asked "Do we see anything here that says this 
"devil" is a fallen spiritual being?  No!  But what we have here 
is Jude speaking of the event in Zech 3:1-2" said 
"Not sure how you cross reference Jude to Zech 3: There is no 
reference to Michael, the body of Moses is not mentioned, Satan 
was there to accuse Joshua, The only similarities in the two 
story is "The Lord Rebuke Thee."

Without going in to detail, because this post is going to be too 
long as it is the body of Moses was God's people.  The "angel of 
the Lord" and Michael are one and the same. Either Zech 3 is what 
is being spoken of in Jude 9 or the OT has no record of this 
event.  Either way, the fact still exists that there is no 
mention of a fallen spiritual being.  Yes the word "satan" is 
mentioned, but  you have not established that this is the same as 
a fallen spiritual being.  It's supposition only!

Mr. Cohoon said 
" Again, you have failed to present a case that will hold up your 
affirmative. You have cross referenced scriptures out of context 
(Jude- Zech), the fact is Satan was real to Jesus. Jesus did not 
say I saw "flesh" falling from the sky, Jesus said I saw Satan 
falling like lightening. Jesus recognized those who followed the 
ways of Satan: "Ye are of your father the deuill, and the lusts 
of your father ye will doe" Could Jesus not have said, "You are 
of your father the flesh?" He could have, but he chose to use the 
word Satan, a real entity, a fallen spiritual being that became 
the epitome of evil: Satan."

I must humbly disagree with you.  I believe I have shown that in 
order to have a fallen spiritual being, one must take for granted 
he exists and then apply things they think would fit him from the 
Bible because it can't be proven that such a creature ever 
existed.  It can only be assumed.

No Christ didn't say He saw flesh falling because what He beheld 
was His covenant in full force removing the Jews from Moses' 
seat. While Christ would not behold literal flesh falling from 
heaven, He would comprehend that the flesh was not in charge of 
Moses' seat anymore.  He would have no need to speak of an event 
He saw millennia previous just because His disciples said 
"demons" were subject to them.

God told His people not to have other gods before Him (Ex 20:3), 
but as shown in this discussion a fallen spiritual being is given 
credit for doing what God takes credit for doing.  This 
"creature" is given the duties of the "law of sin" in the flesh 
which God put in man as God is the only lawgiver (James 4:12).  
To say that a fallen creature fits all the description of the 
flesh is to make another god beside God.  And that's what "Satan" 
apologists do.  They put right along side God a god of evil they 
name "Satan."

I believe if Elijah were here today, he would say as he told 
God's people then, "How long are you stopped between two 
opinions?  If God be God follow Him, but if [a fallen spiritual 
being] be god follow him.  It's time to realize God is 
Sovereign.  Everything He does is for Himself including the 
wicked (Pro 16:4) whatever you perceive that to be.  The fact is 
God doesn't need a fallen spiritual being and God does nothing in 
vain.

This concludes my final affirmative.

Thanks,
James Gary