Dozier/Johnson Debate on Eternal Punishment
James Johnson's Third Affirmative
Proposition:
The scriptures teach that the eternal punishment of lost man is a
final, irrevocable punishment in a lake that burns with fire and
brimstone.
Affirm: James Johnson
Deny: Robert Dozier
As you read the following verses, you will see that the
scriptures warn us of punishment that follows our being judged.
The punishment is men being burned in Gehenna, the Lake of Fire.
The punishment is described as "everlasting", "not quenched", a
place where "their worm dieth not", and "damnation". The
punishment is subsequent to physical death.
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with
his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:
and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger
of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in
danger of hell fire.
Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and
cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy
members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast
into hell.
Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut
them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter
into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two
feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Verse 9 says the same thing but says the offender is "cast into
hell fire"
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better
for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go
into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Jesus spoke to the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23:15 and
said, "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye
compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made,
ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."
In Matthew 23:33 He said, "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers,
how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"
To be a child of hell is to be a recipient of the damnation of
hell.
Jesus said in Matthew 10:28, "And fear not them which kill the
body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him
which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Then in Lk 12:4-5 He warns, "Be not afraid of them that kill the
body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which
after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say
unto you, Fear him.
The reader should note that "destroy both soul and body in hell"
in Mt 10:28 is the same as "cast into hell" in Lk 12:5.
In the above passages Jesus used the words hell, hell fire,
everlasting fire, fire that shall never be quenched, children of
hell, and the damnation of hell. From the context of the verses
it is clear that He is not warning us that if we do not heed His
words that some day that we will die and be buried. He is
warning of something subsequent to our death when our soul is
back in our body, and that something involves everlasting fire.
Jesus describes hell.
Mt 18:8 says that the damned are cast into the everlasting fire
and in v9 they are cast into "hell fire". Therefore,
"everlasting fire" = "hell (Gehenna) fire" and neither of these
are described as annihilation.
Mk 9:43 says hell is a place where the fire will never go out and
v46 says the worm of those cast into Gehenna does not die. Hell
is not a temporary place. The fire there burns forever and some
parasite eternally plagues those who are cast there. There is
nothing in these words that indicates that the torment ever
stops, but it is a rather a place where torment continues
unendingly.
God can cast the wicked into hell
Jesus said in Lk 12:4-5, "And I say unto you my friends, Be not
afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more
that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which
after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say
unto you, Fear him.
Killing the body is not the same as casting into hell. Casting
into hell occurs subsequent to death. Jesus is speaking of the
Judgment and the second death, the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:14).
Mt 10:28 says, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are
not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to
destroy both soul and body in hell" (Gehenna). Thayer says of
"destroy", ".Metaph. To devote or give over to eternal misery"
(Thayer's Lexicon, p64). In both Lk 12:4-5 and Mt 10:28 God
casts the wicked into hell (Gehenna) at the Judgment. The reader
should note that in neither of these passages is "kill" is equal
to "destroy". "Destroy" is equal to "cast into hell". Neither
"kill" nor "destroy" means "ceasing to be" or "annihilation".
In Mt 25:41 Jesus said, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into
everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels". V46
says, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but
the righteous into life eternal." We have already established in
Mt 18:8-9 that "everlasting fire" = Gehenna "hell" and the people
who go there "will be punished forever" (Mt 25:46 CEV). The word
translated "punishment" in v46 is translated "torment" in I Jn
4:18 (".Fear hath torment."). The Devil and his angels are
spirits (II Cor 11:14, Heb 1:14). They also have been previously
tormented in fire without being annihilated (Lk 8:31, II Pet 2:4,
Rev 20:1-3, 10). The wicked are cast into the lake of
everlasting fire and brimstone where the Devil, the beast and the
false prophet have been cast (Rev 19:20, 20:10, 14:10). The
smoke of those cast into the Lake of Fire with the Devil ascends
up for ever and ever and they have no rest day or night (Rev
14:10). (Many thanks to Carol Sutton for much of the material in
the above paragraphs.)
Without redefining words to meanings they do not hold, the reader
can see from the above passages that the Bible speaks of a
punishment to come that is eternal (unending). The only argument
introduced thus far in the debate that would give the traditional
view of hell any difficulty is the literal nature of Gehenna.
The careful reader will note that there is no indication of
figures of speech in Jesus' description of punishment in
Gehenna. He says the punishment is when both body and soul are
cast into Gehenna where their worm does not die and the fire is
not quenched. If one is affirming that hell is a literal place
of fire that lasts for ever, it is incumbent upon one so
affirming to describe how the Valley of Hinnom can be a place of
eternal torment. Likewise those who hold that Gehenna is the
literal Valley of Hinnom but is a figure of annihilation or
temporal punishment have an obligation to defend their position.
In correspondence regarding this debate I invited one brother to
make his position regarding Gehenna and the Lake of Fire clear by
providing the following statements:
"I believe the Lake of fire is.and it represents."
and
"I believe Gehenna is the literal Valley of Hinnom. Jesus'
prophecies regarding Gehenna were literally fulfilled when." or
whatever clear statements that you want to make.
He declined to do so. I am willing to do so, and here are my
beliefs and why I believe them.
I believe the Lake of Fire is a literal lake of fire that will
appear on the new earth after the Judgment (En 67:13). The Lake
of Fire is the same thing as Gehenna as I showed in the table of
comparisons in the Second Affirmative. I believe the Lake of
Fire is literal because I believe our bodies are literally raised
from the dead (Rom 8:11) and those damned at the Judgment have
both body and soul literally cast into hell. This view
harmonizes with a literal understanding of "after he hath killed
hath power to cast into [Gehenna]" (Lk 12:5), "fear him which is
able to destroy both soul and body in [Gehenna]" (Mt 10:28).
John also says that the two evil end-time men, the beast and the
false prophet, are thrown alive into the Lake of Fire (Rev
19:20). The Lake of Fire is therefore a literal lake of fire.
It does not represent anything but itself, a literal lake of
fire.
I believe Gehenna is the literal Valley of Hinnom. The
prophecies concerning Gehenna have not yet been fulfilled but
will be fulfilled at the Judgment. I believe that the region
south of Jerusalem extending down on into Edom (Jer 49:17, Isa
34:6, 10-11) will be the location of the literal Lake of Fire,
Gehenna. The literal Valley of Hinnom in ancient days served as
a type of the Lake of Fire (as so many of the things of the Jews
did-Col 22:16-17) that will literally come to pass at the end of
days. The location of the present day Valley of Hinnom will
serve as the northern edge of the Lake of Fire, and when Jesus
speaks of casting into Gehenna, He means just that. Gehenna will
be bigger in those days, but it will be basically in the same
place (cp. Isa 66:24) but changed to a lake of fire.
There is a prophecy in Rev 14:10-11 that deserves further
attention. Robert has waved it aside (based upon Rev 1:1) by
asserting that everything in Revelation is figurative, and
therefore uncertain and not worthy of serious consideration. If
his argument proves anything, it also proves that the verse he
uses in Revelation proves itself to be figurative and thus
unreliable. That which proves too much proves nothing. If
Robert's proof text does not require everything thing Revelation
to be figurative, then the context must determine whether a
statement is figurative or literal. That is what we seek to do
here, since a blanket assertion regarding the figurativeness of
Revelation based upon evidence from Revelation reduces to
absurdity.
Let us now turn our attention to an analysis of Rev 14:10-11.
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of
God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his
indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in
the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and
his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
The annihilationists claim that Rev 14:10-11 is "figurative" and
thus wave it aside into meaninglessness. They do this because it
is clearly fatal to their proposition (hell is not eternal) if it
is allowed to stand. They reject Rev 14:10 on the basis of
Jesus' statement in Rev 1:1 that Jesus made the revelation known
(signified) unto John by the angel of Christ. Several things may
be noted about the dismissal of Rev 14:10 based on Rev 1:1
1) The annihilationists greatly prefer the King James'
"signified" over the clear meaning "made it known" used by the
modern English versions (NIV) or "communicated" (NASB), because
they can more easily establish the subterfuge that all of
Revelation is fantasy and therefore unusable in debate because
its meaning is uncertain
2) If all of Revelation is figurative, what prevents Rev 1:1 from
being a figure of something other than a plain statement that
Revelation is figurative?
3) Even the annihilationists do not take every single thing in
Revelation to be figurative. Therefore the context must
determine what is figurative and what is not. They do not do
that in dealing with Rev 14:10.
4) Good hermeneutics requires that the expositor take a text to
be literal unless the context requires that that the text must be
taken figuratively. The annihilationists do not attempt to do
that, but rather make a blanket generalization that because Rev
14:10 is in Revelation it must therefore be figurative. Such is
invalid exegesis.
5) The annihilationists do not generally attempt to tell us what Rev 14:10 means if it is indeed figurative.
They merely wave it aside.
Let's look at the text of Rev 14:10-11 in some detail.
Table 1. Analysis of Rev 14:10-11 showing parallel passages in
the Bible. The accounts that are parallel are considered by most
Christians to be literal accounts. Since they say the same
things, the Revelation account is literal also.
Characteristics Parallel Ref
of Rev 14:10-11 Accounts
_______________________________________
The antecedent of Paul says II Thes
"the same" (v10) are those who 2:12
the ones who are are deceived
deceived and (II Thes
worship the beast 2:10-11),
and receive his believe not
mark in v9 the truth and
who follow the
Man of Sin
are "damned"
(v12)
Drinks of the wine In the Jer
of the wrath of God scriptures, 25:17-
which is poured out the cup of 18, 28-
without mixture [His God's wrath 29,
wrath is not diluted is the 49:11-
by time] into the physical 12
cup of His punishment
indignation he gives to
the wicked
(Jer 25:17-
18, 28-
29,
49:11-12).
Therefore,
the cup of
God's wrath
at the end of
the world is
His physical
punishment
on evil doers
when He
damns them
to hell (Mt
25:41). Hell
is a
damnation,
a punishment
of the
physical
body (Mt
28:10)
he shall be tormented The dammed Mt
with fire and are described 13:42,
brimstone as being cast 18:8,
into the 25:41
everlasting Rev 21:8
fire (Mt 18:8,
25:41), the
furnace of
fire at the end
of the world
(Mt 13:40,
42), and
eternal
Gehenna fire
(Mt 18:8-9).
Rev 21:8
says the
damned are
cast into the
lake of fire
and brimstone,
the Lake of
Fire (Rev
20:14).
Being cast
into the Lake
of Fire is for
ever (Rev
20:10, Mt
25:41).
These places
are all the
same place
because all of
them are for
ever and one
person can
only burn for
ever in one
place. The
Lake of Fire
with its fire
and
brimstone is
the place
where the
damned are
tormented
with fire and
brimstone for
ever.
In the presence of The rebels Lk 19:27,
the holy angels are slain in Mt 25:31,
the King's Isa 66:23,
presence at Ps 91:8
the Judgment
(Lk 19:27)
when all the
holy angels
are present
(Mt 25:31)
The righteous
shall go forth
from
Jerusalem
to observe
the wicked
in hell
(Isa 66:23,
Ps 91:8)
And the smoke of Idumea Isa 34:10,
their torment (Edom) that Mt 18:8-9,
ascendeth up for ever lies to the 25:41,
and ever: south of Mk 3:29,
Jerusalem Heb 6:2,
will smoke Mk 9:48
for ever and
ever (Isa
34:10).
Gehenna, a
valley that
ends south of
Jerusalem, is
the place
where the
damned will
be physically
cast (Mt
18:8-9). The
place of the
damned is a
place of
"everlasting
fire" (Mt
18:8, 25:41),
"eternal
damnation"
(Mk 3:29),
"eternal
judgment"
(Heb 6:2),
"everlasting
destruction"
(II Thes 1:9)
where their
worm dieth
not and the
fire is never
quenched
(Mk 9:45,
48, Isa
33:14)
And they have no rest The damned II Thes 1:9,
day nor night are cut off Mk 9:45
from the
presence of
the Lord
where they
are
everlastingly
punished (II
Thes 1:9)
and their
worm dieth
not (Mk
9:45)
who worship the beast The Man of II Thes 2:12,
and his image, and Sin (II Thes Rev 21:8
whosoever receiveth 2:3-12) is the
the mark of his name. same as the
beast of Rev
13:1-10.
Those who
receive the
mark of the
beast are
damned (II
Thes 2:12)
and cast into
the Lake of
Fire (Rev
21:8)
As the above analysis shows, every point of the text in Rev
14:10-11 corresponds to points about hell that are made
elsewhere. The other places in the scriptures that correspond to
the text in Rev 14:10-11 are taken literally. Since there is
complete correspondence between Rev 14 and other texts that are
accepted to be literal, there is no basis for taking Rev 14:10-11
to be figurative. It must therefore be one of those texts in
Revelation that are literal, as even the proponents of taking
Revelation to be figurative are forced to admit must exist. If
Rev 14:10-11 is literal then the phrase "And the smoke of their
torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day
nor night" is literal and my proposition is proved. Hell is
everlasting conscious punishment of the damned.
In his second negative, Robert claims that in my analysis of the
Bible teaching on hell that I generated false combinations. He
merely makes the statement that I do so without any attempt to
show that I have actually done so. I acknowledge that it is
possible to do so. A well known illustration is, "[Judas] went
and hanged himself." "Go thou and do likewise." The
concatenation of those scriptures (Mt 27:5, Lk 10:37) is what
Robert is talking about, but it is not what I have done here. If
there is evidence that I have concatenated unrelated scriptures,
he needs to adduce evidence to support his claim.
We have shown that the Bible teaches that hell is literally a
lake of fire in which the damned burn for ever. The evidence
presented against it has been a series of unsubstantiated
assumptions. In order to present a plausible case for God's
eternal punishment really being only temporary, the proponents
find it necessary to do the following things:
1) Assume literal plain statements of the Bible to be figures of
speech (e.g. Rev 14:10-11).
2) Redefine "death" and "kill" as annihilation, cessation of
being.
3) Redefine "eternal", "everlasting" and "for ever" as a
temporary situation.
4) Assume that spirits can be annihilated by fire when the Bible
shows they endure fire (Lk 16:22-24) and can even become fire
(Heb 1:7)
5) Assume that "destruction" equals annihilation
6) Aver that the wicked are punished "for ever", but their so-
called "everlasting" punishment in the fire changes at some point
in the future to annihilation
7) Make Gehenna hell a temporal place of punishment for wicked
Jews, whereas James warns all Christians (Jas 3:1) that their
tongue and by inference the body it is attached to will burn in
Gehenna (Jas 3:6) if they don't control it.
Here is the truth corresponding to the above arguments:
1) See Table 1 above showing that Rev 14 is literal and thus
teaches everlasting conscious punishment of the damned
2) Thayer defines "death" as 1. properly, "the death of the
body," i. e. "that separation" (whether natural or violent) "of
the soul from the body by which the life on earth is ended" 2.
metaphorically, "the loss of that life which alone is worthy of
the name," i. e. "the misery of soul arising from sin, which
begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the
body" 3. "the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell". There
is nothing here about annihilation
"Destruction" is "destructive, deadly". There is nothing here
about annihilation.
"Kill" is 1. "to sacrifice, immolate", 2. "to slay, kill", 3. "to
slaughter". There is nothing here about annihilation.
3) "Eternal" is 1. "without beginning or end, that which always
has been and always will be", 2. "without beginning", "without
end, never to cease, everlasting"
Hebrew "everlasting" is "perpetuity; forever; continuing future;
ancient (used of past time); forever (used of future time); used
of continuous existence; forever (used of God's existence)"
(Brown-Driver-Briggs). This word does not mean temporary.
Hebrew "forever" is
1. the same as "everlasting,
2. "completion; finality; in perpetuity",
3. "all; the whole; the whole of; any; each; every;
anything; totality; everything",
4. "eminence; perpetuity; strength; victory; enduring;
everlastingness; enduring of life; endurance in time; perpetual;
continual; unto the end; everlastingness; ever",
5. completion; finality; in perpetuity
Not one of these words translated "for ever" means temporary.
Greek "forever" is "from the same as 104; properly, an
age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the
world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future)
(Strong). Since the age of the new earth of the future does not
end (Lk 1:33), the age of the Messiah is not temporary and the
punishment of the wicked endures as long as the righteous are
rewarded, and that is eternally (Mt 25:46).
4) The disembodied spirit of Dives endured the flames of Hades
(Lk 16:24). The spirit of the Devil is said to endure the Lake
of Fire for ever and ever (Rev 20:10). Angels can actually
become fiery beings (Heb 1:7). God, a Spirit, can endure fire
(Ex 3:4, Dan 3:25). Fire is never said to annihilate spirits.
Spirits being annihilated in hell is wishful thinking by the
annihilationists, for no text supports it.
5) Thayer defines "destruction" as "destructive, deadly"
Strong says it is, "ruin, i.e. death, punishment". Neither of
these definitions says anything about cessation of being or
annihilation.
6) See the definition of "everlasting" above. The definition of
"everlasting" (i.e. "perpetuity") will not permit a change in the
punishment at some finite future date.
7) Gehenna is a place of eternal torment (Mt 18:8-9, Mt 25:46,
Rev 14:10-11, 20:10) where the damned are cast at the Judgment
(Mt 25:41, Rev 20:15, 21:8)
As the analysis shows, all of the above seven actions taken on
the scriptures by the annihilationists are wrong, but even the
falsification of a single one of them would most likely destroy
their argument that hell is temporal. Since all of the above are
false, their proposition is thus seven times proven to be false
because of the falsification of the seven pillars of their
proposition.
The Bible teaches that the torment of the damned is for ever and
ever. They will have no rest day or night. Hell is for ever.
There is no escape from the flames of hell. Let us strive to
please God that we may never go there.
Brotherly,
James Johnson