Dozier/Johnson Debate on Eternal Punishment

 
 
 Proposition: 
 The scriptures teach that the eternal punishment of lost man is a 
final, irrevocable punishment in a lake that burns with fire and 
brimstone.

Affirm:  James Johnson
Deny: Robert Dozier

James wrote:
We use the following definitions:
"Scriptures" are those writings inspired (God-breathed) of God
"Eternal" means "without end".
"Punishment" means "the act of punishing".
"Eternal punishment" means "the act of punishing without end".
"Lost" means "to destroy, to perish".
"Lake with fire and brimstone" is "hell"; everlasting punishment;
in the  figurative sense, "Gehenna" "Fire and brimstone" is fire 
and sulphur.  The Lake of Fire and brimstone is a description of 
a lake of burning sulphur. Sulphur melts and flows when it burns.

Hermeneutic to be Used
I would like to begin this discussion with a description of a 
hermeneutic that is to be used for this discussion.  It is a 
simple rule with profound implications in terms of understanding 
scripture. The simple rule is that any text must be taken 
literally unless the context demands that the text must be 
understood figuratively.  D. R. Dungan in his classic work, 
Hermeneutics, lists the above rule as the number one rule applied 
to understanding figures (D. R. Dungan, Hermeneutics, Standard 
Publishing Company, Cincinnati, OH, 1888, p184).  To the above 
rule we add a corollary:  expositors must use a bible key to 
unlock the meaning of figures (cf. Dungan, Sec 49, Rule 7, How 
May We Know the Purpose of the Author.

Expositors are not at liberty to apply just any meaning that they 
choose to explain a figure, for such actions results in anarchy.  
An example of the proper use of a bible key to explain a figure 
is found in Rev 1:20 ("The seven stars are the angels of the 
seven churches").  The apostle John illustrates the use of Bible 
keys when He uses the statement of Christ to explain Rev 1:16's 
"seven stars".

One expositor suggested a rule opposite to the above that must 
apply to all scripture.  He suggested that all scripture must be 
taken figuratively unless the context demands that it must be 
taken literally.  Such a rule reduces understanding the Bible to 
chaos, for there is NO text that cannot be imagined to be 
figurative and there is NO text that is imagined to be figurative 
to which one cannot attach some fanciful meaning.  Even the 
resurrection of Christ upon which our hope uniquely rests can be 
imagined to be a figure of the hope of the disciples that was 
crushed at the death of Christ that sprang again to life when the 
disciples began to perpetuate His memory by the propagation of 
the teaching of the Master.  Likewise, if we permit the 
imagination of the expositor to be the only rule needed to 
determine the meaning of a figure then almost anything could be 
imagined as an explanation of the text (Dungan:183).  The chaotic 
meaning attached to scripture by means of making it figurative 
and assigning the "figures" an arbitrary meaning justifies the 
charge leveled by unbelievers that the Bible can be made to mean 
anything and hence means nothing.  If the hermeneutic requiring a 
text to be understood literally unless the context demands 
otherwise is not followed, meaningful discussion of Bible texts 
becomes impossible.  Specifically of relevance to the present 
discussion with regard to the use and understanding of figures 
are "Gehenna", a figure of eternal punishment, and "the Lake of 
Fire", a literal description of everlasting punishment.

Robert replies:
That rule is much more applicable in some biblical literature 
than others.  There is apocalyptic literature and language.  
Rev.1:1 says the book of Revelation is in signs and is regarding 
things that must shortly come to pass.  Not the ideal place to 
hang your hat for a doctrinal foundation of literal things.  My 
view depends on the many, many statements that I take at face 
value in the OT and NT that speak of the death, destruction, 
perishing, etc., of the lost and using them as a basis for 
understanding the apocalyptic and obviously figurative language
elsewhere.

James wrote
The real issue in the debate on eternal punishment is not really 
over what the Bible says.  The text is very clear when it says 
that the Lake of Fire burns unceasingly and does not ever go out 
(Mt 3:12, Lk 3:16).  

Robert here...
Doesn't say that at all.  The phrase "unquenchable" does not mean 
that it will not ever go out, just that it cannot be put out by 
men before it burns everything up.  The word is used today to 
describe fires that are out of control and must burn themselves 
out.  It is synonymous with "eternal fire", which is fire with a 
divine origin.  It is seen in the destruction of Sodom and as 
well in the death of Nadab & Abihu (Lev. 10)and the demonstration 
in the confrontation between Elijah and the prophets of Baal (1 
Kings 18). God is a "consuming fire".  Things "eternal" describe 
the divine nature...and they are different in one important way 
from the human things as they cannot be thwarted (Eccl. 3:14).

James wrote:
Likewise it is very clear that the Devil is thrown into the  Lake 
of Fire and is tormented day and night unendingly (Rev 20:10). 

Robert replies:
The debate is not about the fate of the devil, so that text is 
irrelevant.  Again, that is a message that is "a revelation of 
Jesus Christ" and is "signified" about "things that must shortly 
come to pass".  Not a foundation for literal interpretation about 
eschatology (even if some typology occurs).  Revelation depicts a 
victorious Saviour and a defeated Devil.  Very few things in 
Revelation can be taken literally. Dogmatism regarding literal 
interpretation of Revelation is to ignore the first verse of the
book.

James wrote:
It is abundantly clear that the wicked who are thrown into hell 
are conscious for they weep and gnash their teeth (Mt 8:12)

Robert replies:
True, but it says nothing about this going on without end 
forever.  I don't deny that the lost will suffer, and some longer 
than others (Luke 12:47-48), but descriptions of that agony that 
they will undergo cannot be assumed to be a never ending thing.  
The punishing process is not the same thing as the end of the 
punishment.  Capital punishment in the electric chair is 
gruesome, but death is the result.  Corporal punishment has 
children crying and screaming  but is completed and they play 
again.  The phrase "eternal punishment" describes a class of 
punishment, not the duration of the punishing process.  The word 
"eternal" is a word that is above time.  Many things said to be 
'eternal" do not involve never ending process, but permanent 
results. 

James wrote:
and they have no rest day or night forever (Rev 14:11).

Robert replies:
Granted, if literal, this would be a strong text for your 
proposition.  But the fact that it talks about "day and night" 
shows that it does not refer to eternity, where there will not be 
any "day" and "night".  Revelation is not the place to build a 
foundation for your proposition.

James wrote:
It is very clear that the wicked thrown there are not burned up, 
for their worm does not ever die (Mk 9:48).

Robert replies:
The phrase "worm does not die" does not reveal to us that worms 
will be granted immortality.  The scriptures tell us that "only 
God hath immortality".  The traditional view of Hell is built 
upon the assumption that man has a immortal spirit that must be 
conscious forever somewhere, and hell is the default location. 
Now we learn that worms are immortal or will be granted 
immortality.  This is imagery.  Isa. 66:22-24 is the basis for 
it.  Note that the worms are eating "carcasses" (dead bodies), 
not live humans being tormented in flames in that imagery.  
Again, as the fire cannot be put out, so the worms cannot be 
stopped from the destructive work they are engaged in.  Both once 
the object of destruction is consumed, both fire and worms are 
finished.  It is imagery, not literal detail.  It is imagery 
borrowed from literal death and destruction brought about by God 
in judgments that had occurred.

James wrote”
The literal sense of these verses is very clear, but yet 
controversy remains over what God really means.  

Robert replies:
Fire destroys that which it engulfs.  Worms consume dead bodies.  
That is very clear. There is nothing there to suggest never 
ending torment.

In fact, the texts speak of the opposite.  We would never look at 
this as never ending if it wasn't already in our heads when we 
read it.

James wrote:
The real issues are therefore philosophical ones of what does God 
really mean rather than what the text literally says.  The main 
philosophical opposition arises from the injustice that our 
theology has God imposing on the ignorant.  That is, is it really 
just for God to throw weak and ignorant men into Gehenna to 
endless torment?

Robert replies:
True, as God is a God of justice, but also of mercy.  There is no 
reason to torment people in flames for billions of years. If God 
is just to do that, then there is no such thing as child abuse or 
cruel and unusual punishment.  But that is not my main argument 
against the traditional view of Hell.  The Bible simply doesn't 
teach it.  It does not inhere in the word "eternal".  It is not 
in the idea of the phrases, "unquenchable fire" and "worms that 
die not".  

James wrote:
A second issue relevant to understanding eternal  hell is in what 
manner we should attempt to understand the Bible.  Is it a book 
of mystery using figurative language to reveal God's truth in 
such a way that only specially endowed commentators who have 
unique insight from God may understand it?  Ed Fudge and Al Maxey 
are representative champions of using the justice of God as the 
key to interpreting the real meaning of hell
http://www.edwardfudge.com/written/fire.html,
http://www.zianet.com/maxey/MxThrshr.htm).
Sam Dawson is a representative champion of the figurative 
approach to the Bible 
(http://gospelthemes.com/hell.htm).

Robert replies:
Jesus criticized the Jews for not factoring in the weightier 
matters of the law - justice, mercy, and faith - in their day.  
If the Bible teaches the traditional view of Hell, so be it.  I 
believed it for years. I did not change my mind about it due to a 
philosophical problem regarding the justice of God, but because 
the scriptures simply don't teach it. Jude 7 was pivotal for me.  
The "eternal fire" that destroyed Sodom is said to be an 
"example" for the ungodly today.  The folks in Sodom did not 
undergo never ending conscious torment, but the cities and 
inhabitant suffered an permanent destruction. The eternal fire 
consumed them.  Nothing could have stopped it. Most preachers 
today who believe the traditional view of Hell are silent as a 
church mouse about it.  That is what the inability to reconcile 
the justice of God with the concept in one's mind does - it 
silences him, but it does not change his theology.  Few have the 
heart (or lack thereof) to preach this teaching.  If it is true, 
then it is the strongest message you have.  If I believed it, I 
would start with it.  Who would want to burn forever? Who 
wouldn't turn from sin if we convinced them it was true? 

James wrote:
The reasoning in this paper will make no difference to the people 
who take the scriptures to be figurative.  It will not matter 
what God says because, "It is figurative, don't you know?"  If 
you start with the premise that eternal hell is a figure of 
speech, you will never arrive at the conclusions presented here.  
The reasoning here will be rejected outright as being invalid 
because the basic premise that God literally means what He says 
will be rejected from the beginning.  With those who hold that 
view, you must begin with a discussion regarding what is the 
appropriate hermeneutic with which to interpret scripture.  As 
long as men feel free to take a passage in a figurative way when 
they encounter scriptures whose literal sense is objectionable or 
difficult, there can be no real rapprochement on the issue of 
eternal punishment.

Robert replies:
We may have a real problem there James.  Much of the language is 
figurative.  The entire basis for much of the language regarding 
the judgments of God (whether national or individual) are based 
in the literal events that transpired in the destruction of Sodom 
& Gomorrah. The ascending smoke of rev. 14 is rooted in Abraham's 
view of Sodom & Gomorrah in Gen. 19:24ff.  It is imagery.  Even 
if Rev. 14 is literal, it would be depicting the aftermath of the 
destruction, as did the smoke that Abraham saw.  It is an image 
that was burned in Abraham's memory and probably the minds of 
many living then. It is like 9/11 to us.  Some comparisons were 
made by folks regarding 9/11 to Pearl Harbor.  Such comparisons 
are about the magnitude of the event, it's impact upon the world.  
We would think it silly to say that that comparison was saying 
that there was similarity in all respects or even some. As Sodom 
& Gomorrah suffered the punishment of "eternal fire", so the 
wicked will undergo a equally destructive and final punishment.

Revelation introduces itself with instructions - it is a 
revelation of Jesus Christ, not a revelation of the fate of man 
or eschatology.  It's imagery has to do with His rule and victory 
despite the present appearance to the churches in Asia that evil 
rules.  Jesus Christ defeats Satan.  What was true then is true 
now and Christ will always defeat Satan. But that is because God 
defeats the Devil every time. The first manifestation of that for 
man to see was in Sodom & Gomorrah, thus that event became the 
basis for much of the judgment language of scripture (Cf. Gen. 
19:24-28; Isa. 34:9-10; 66:24; Jer. 17:27; Ezek. 20:45-49 with 
Rev. 14:10-11;18:9,18-19; 19:3; 20:10,14).  revelation speaks of 
things which "must shortly come to pass".  There may be some 
typology but not a foundation for literal eschatology.

James wrote:
Hell is Unending Conscious Torment
At issue in the discussion is whether those who are damned by God 
at the Judgment suffer unending, conscious torment, or whether, 
as brother Dozier affirms, they suffer for a time and are then 
utterly and finally annihilated by the literal flames of hell.  
We can determine that the damned suffer eternally by noting the 
meaning of "forever", "eternal" and "everlasting".  Though 
brother Dozier has contended that "forever" has to do with 
permanence rather than duration, it is clear that if something is 
permanent, it is age lasting.  Since the world to come does not 
end (Rev 22:5), anything permanent in that world will last forever. 

Robert replies:
If that is true, then the "eternal" fire that destroyed Sodom & 
Gomorrah would have burned until the end of the Patriarchal age, 
or until Moses brought the ten commandments down from Sinai.  
Young’s Literal renders eternal as "age-during" or age enduring 
to us.  Things eternal are not subject to or affected by time.  
They are from God, with whom time is not an issue.  Divine things 
are permanent and unchangeable, whether they last for a short 
time or a long time. We humans are so time oriented that we have 
trouble grasping concepts that are not time oriented, but God 
doesn't know the difference between a day and a millennium, 
except as relates to temporal, earthly,  human affairs. 

James wrote:
God lasts forever (Rev 15:7).  Christ lasts forever (Lk 1:33, Rev 
1:18).  The saints last forever (Mt 19:29, Lk 18:30, I Tim 1:16).  
The Bible clearly teaches that the existence of these is without 
end.  The exact same word used to describe "life eternal" (Mt 
25:46) is used to describe "everlasting fire" (Mt 25:41) and 
"everlasting punishment" (Mt 25:46).  If the word means 
"permanent living" when applied to God, Christ, and the saints, 
then it means "permanent dying" when applied to the damned.

Robert replies:
God is "eternal", but that is not speaking of the length of time 
he has existed as that is not subject to any measurement.  If 
"eternal" is a word that inheres never ending duration, then the 
passover should still be observed and Sodom should be burning. 
What proves too much proves nothing. God is "eternal" is not a 
statement of ultimate seniority but of the divine nature.  God is 
the "I Am".  He is not subject to time or the effects of it as He 
is divine in nature. 

James writes
God saves the righteous from eternal wrath at the Judgment, and 
the effect is eternal living.  It is a one time decision by God 
that brings the righteous into eternal life.  However, though the 
judgment may be a singular event with everlasting effects, the 
state into which God's singular judgment placed the saints is one 
of constant duration.  

Robert replies:
That "eternal life" is of never ending duration is because of the 
combination of the two words.  Eternal points to the permanence 
of the life.  Life does infer living.  You point here is trying 
to use the term "life" and its implications to prove your point
about "eternal".

James wrote:
The state selected by the Judgment of God is an everlasting state 
that is distinct from His singular judgment that selected their 
state.  The state of the saved into which God's singular judgment 
places them is eternal living.  Likewise the damned are placed in 
a state by a one time judgment from God.  They will never again 
come before the presence of God (II Thes 1:9, En 62:13).  Their 
access to God is forever destroyed by His one time pronouncement 
of their doom.  God's pronouncement, however, rather than 
annihilating them forever, places them in a state of punishment 
forever.  In that state of eternal punishment they are consigned 
to a state where they are the objects of "the act of punishing" 
forever.  Their state, like the righteous, is an eternal state, 
but in contrast to the eternal living state of the righteous, the 
wicked suffer an eternal dying state in unending agony (Mt 8:12, 
Lk 13:28, Mk 9:48).

Robert replies:
There is nothing in the scripture about "eternal dying". You 
really need to find perpetual "dying" to support your view.  

James wrote:
Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out 
into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of 
teeth.

Robert replies:
I agree.  The "gnashing of teeth" denotes anger (Cf Acts 7:54).  
Those who stoned Stephen were angry at him.  It does not denote 
pain.  They were not in pain.  They, in their anger, killed him.  
The lost will weep at their fate but also be angry, either at God 
or themselves, or both, for their end.  Nothing to tell us how 
long it will last, but surely nothing here that inhere perpetual 
weeping, gnashing of teeth as a result of pain. Sorrow and anger 
over loss, but not unending pain.

James wrote:
Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye 
shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in 
the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Robert replies:
So be it.  Again, nothing perpetual or never ending.

James wrote:
Mark 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not 
quenched.

Robert replies
Again, all this entails is a destruction that cannot be abated. 
It cannot be stopped.  It will not be stopped until the objects 
of the consuming fire and worms appetite are no more. Again, this 
is not literal, but imagery.  You must have a body that is 
continually restoring and healing itself for this to be literal 
and never ending process.

James writes
From a practical perspective it matters not whether one regards 
"eternal punishment" as a permanent state brought about by the 
Judgment of God or whether one regards it as an unending state 
brought about by the Judgment of God.  In an age that never ends, 
the effect of both views is exactly the same; that is, permanent 
is the same as unending.  If the damned are placed in a permanent 
state of dying, they are placed in an eternal state of dying.  

Robert replies:
Age enduring or age lasting speaks to the effect of something, 
not the length of the process of the act. Eternal sin, judgment, 
redemption, salvation, etc., are processes hat have permanent 
effect but are not never ending acts.  So the punishment of 
eternal fire, per Jude 7, seen in Sodom & Gomorrah, and stated as 
the example for the ungodly of this age.

James wrote:
The place of death (Hades) is even put into Gehenna with the 
damned (Rev 20:14).  As a result of the place of death being 
identical to the place of dying, the souls of the damned have 
nowhere to go and physical death (the separation of body and 
spirit-Jas 2:26 cannot occur.

Robert replies:
Not sure I am following you there.  The lost will be resurrected 
and both body and soul will be destroyed in Hell (John 5:28-29; 
Mt. 10:28)

James wrote:
It is also true that souls cannot be annihilated by fire because 
God's spirit angels can become flames of fire (Heb 1:7)

Robert replies:
Hardly a place to go to support never ending conscious torment of 
the resurrected lost sinner.  I think most can see this to be 
"reaching".

James wrote:
and spirits in Hades endure its flames (Lk 16:24). 

Robert replies:
The story of Luke 16:19-31 is irrelevant to our discussion as it 
pertains to the intermediate state. But I must point out that the 
story speaks of people with bodies as well as spirits in Hades.  
The rich man has a tongue and thirsts, 

James wrote:
The damned are placed in a state of eternal punishment where they 
suffer the pangs of death (Acts 2:24) for eternity (Mk 9:48, Isa 
66:24). 

Robert replies:
Already dealt with.  You are reading way too much into this.

James wrote:
In contrast to the idea of annihilation the Bible teaches that 
man has an immortal soul (Gen 1:27, 9:6, Lk 20:38). 

Oh contraire.  Only God hath immortality (1 Tim. 6:16).  God 
wants man to learn that he is but as a beast (Eccl. 3:18).  We 
have a greater nature in being in the image of God, but the word 
immortal is not applied to man presently.  Man, in the 
scriptures, is treated as an entity of body and spirit, which 
creates a soul.  Being" in the image of God" does not teach that 
we have immortal spirits.  That is assumed.

As regards Luke 20:38, Jesus is pointing out that a bodily 
resurrection is necessary for God to be the God of the living.  
If men have immortal spirits living now in Hades, then the 
resurrection only is necessary for them to have a body. Jesus 
taught that the resurrection is necessary for God to be the God 
of the living.  Abraham, Issac & Jacob were dead when God spoke 
to Moses, thus His reference to Himself as their present God 
necessarily infers that they will be raised and live again.  If 
they are not raised, then God is not the God of the living. Lk. 
20 necessarily infers a bodily resurrection as part of who God is 
as it relates to the state of A-I-J when God spoke to Moses.  If 
A-I-J were alive in Hades when God appeared to Moses, then, the 
bodily resurrection is not necessarily inferred by Ex. 3:5.  

James wrote:
Man's soul is not annihilated by the flames of Hades (Lk 16:24).  
Neither is the soul annihilated by the flames of Gehenna as the 
following verses attest:

Mark 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not 
quenched.

 Robert wrote: 
Already dealt with.

James wrote:
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up 
forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who 
worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark 
of his name.

Robert replies:
The smoke of their torment attests to the defeat that has 
occurred.  The people in Sodom were dead when Abraham saw that 
ascending smoke in the plain (Gen. 19:28).  I suspect that 
Abraham never forgot that imagery, and nor will the righteous 
ever forget the destruction of the wicked, but that is the 
meaning of the imagery.  If the wicked of Sodom were dead when 
Abraham saw that smoke, why the different interpretation re the 
wicked at the end, even if Rev. 14 is depicting the final end.

James wrote:
At the Judgment God pronounces a doom that is unchanging.  For 
the righteous their sentence is one of unending reward, 
everlasting life.  For the damned their sentence is one of 
unending punishment, everlasting torment.  The reader should note 
that the sentence of God is singular and does not change.  God's 
judgment is either life or death.  If one receives everlasting 
life, he will be living forever.  If one receives everlasting 
death, he will be dying forever.  God's sentence is not one of 
punishment for a finite time and then annihilation forever, but 
it is a singular punishment, "everlasting punishment".  Those who 
say that the wicked are annihilated either immediately or after a 
finite time of torture ignore the unchanging aspect of God's 
punishment.  A punishment that is first torment in the flame and 
then annihilation is not the same punishment.  A change takes 
place when the sinner ceases to exist.  In the case where the 
sinner suffers for a time and then ceases to exist, there are 
actually two punishments involved.  One is torture in the flame 
where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.  There is then a 
second punishment inflicted: eternal annihilation.  The judgment 
of God is thus seen to be changed.  The damned do NOT continue in 
the punishment that God initially inflicts on them where they cry 
out in pain.  Sooner or later the pain of the fire ceases, when a 
second punishment, annihilation, is inflicted upon them.

Robert replies:
The man who experiences pain and then dies has undergone one 
punishment, not two.  The process and the result are all part of 
the one punishment, whether corporal, capital, or eternal 
punishment is under consideration. 

James wrote:
What is Death?
The Lake of Fire is called the Second Death (Rev 20:14), but what 
is the death to which it refers?  In order to explain the Second 
Death, we need to understand death in general.  Jas 2:24 says, 
"The body apart from the spirit is dead".  It is not the spirit 
that dies, but the body.  

Robert replies:
The body is dead.  What does the Bible say of the "spirit" at 
that point?  It returns to God (Eccl. 12:7)  The spirit is that 
which animates or gives life.  It gives life and animates the 
body.  While a spirit may be able to have consciousness apart 
from the body (angels and demons don't have a body, but it must 
be noted that they are not the same nature as humans to begin 
with), I don't know where there is any definitive proof for this.  
The scriptures assert that the dead are "asleep".  How does James 
explain that?  His view seems to teach that that once man dies, 
he will never sleep again.  I don't purport to understand all the 
mystery surrounding the interaction between body, spirit, and 
soul, but I accept that a resurrection is necessary for God to be 
the God of the living (that assumes man is presently dead) and I 
accept the scripture assertion that the dead are "asleep", which 
doesn't fit a literal interpretation of Luke 16:19-31.

James wrote:
The body is dead because it is separated from the spirit that 
animates it.  Likewise in Col 2:20 the Christian is deemed to be 
dead to the world, that is, the Christian is separated from the 
defiling elements of the world.  We perceive then that the 
essence of death then is separation from something.  In death a 
relationship is severed.  We now notice that in I Tim 5:6 Paul 
describes a sinful woman who is dead while her body is alive.  He 
refers therefore to a kind of death different from physical 
death.  If death is separation, what is it that the sinful woman 
is separated from while she is still living?  In the case of the 
sinful woman her death appears to be a separation from fellowship 
with God.  In that way the sinful woman is physically alive but 
she is spiritually dead because she is separated from fellowship 
with God.  We call the death of I Tim 5:6 "spiritual death".

Robert replies:
I agree that death is separation.  We disagree as to whether or 
not those who have undergone "death" are fully conscious now.

James wrote:
Though the woman of I Tim 5:6 is dead, she does not cease to 
exist, God does not cease to exist and her spirit does not cease 
to exist.  

Robert replies:
She doesn't in totality, but her relationship with God does.  
That is the "death" spoken of.

James wrote:
What ceases to exist is a relationship with God.  In the same way 
those who suffer the second death do not cease to exist, but as 
II Thes 1:9 instructs us, the damned suffer everlasting 
destruction from the presence of the Lord.  Paul there defines 
what the second death is.  It is permanent separation from 
fellowship with God.  The destruction of the relationship with 
God is severing the fellowship with God and is what the Second 
Death really is.  The following table illustrates the three 
different types of death that we have discussed.  In every case 
the death involves the destruction of a relationship.  The 
physical things involved in death do not cease their existence, 
but when they die to one another they do cease to have 
fellowship.

Type of Death      What Does Exist       What Does Not Exist
Physical           The spirit the body   Fellowship between the
                                         body and the spirit
Matthew 22:32; Luke 16:23-31)(James 2:26;Luke 16:22-23)

Spiritual          The Person, God      Fellowship between God
                                        and the person
(1 Timothy 5:6; Ephesians 2:1-3)(1 John 1:6; 1 Timothy 5:6)

Eternal            The Person, God      Fellowship between God
                                        and the person
Matthew 25:46; Mark 9:43-48)(Matthew 25:41; 7:23).

Man cannot live apart from God (Acts 17:24-28)

As we have seen, the view of some is that the state of the wicked 
changes from punishment to non-punishment when they eventually 
burn up, but that is not what the text says happens.  The text 
says that the damned go into everlasting punishment, a punishing 
that lasts forever.  

Robert replies:
Doesn't say that at all.  That is your interpretation. Does the 
man on death row cease from being punished with capital 
punishment when he dies?  No, the affects of capital punishment 
are sealed until the resurrection.  Those who undergo eternal 
punishment, will never be resurrected.  It is final, permanent.

James wrote:
If a man goes to the electric chair, and he dies, we do not speak 
of his punishment continuing.  He is taken and buried and his 
punishment is completed.  That is not the view of the Bible with 
respect to Gehenna.  The text says that the smoke of their 
torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest.  Clearly 
"no rest" in Rev 14:11 indicates existence and consciousness, and 
"forever and ever" indicates the unending duration of their 
punishment.  There is no change in the punishment of the wicked.  
It continues without respite forever.

Robert replies:
Already covered, I believe.

James wrote:
The Second Death
Mark 9:48 and Rev 14:11 both indicate the unending nature of the 
punishment.  God sustains the tormented for they glorify Him even 
while they suffer everlasting torture.  The plight of the wicked 
illustrate Paul's saying that in a great house there are vessels 
of wrath and vessels of mercy (Rom 9:22-23).  The vessels of 
mercy glorify God by their obedience and unending glorification.  
The vessels of wrath glorify God by illustrating His justice upon 
their unending rebellion through the unending punishment He 
inflicts.  Both the righteous and the wicked serve God forever. 

Robert replies:
Sodom & Gomorrah serve God as well.  They are an example for the 
ungodly today. Does that mean that Sodom & Gomorrah continue to 
exist and that the punishing process of those ancient people 
continues?  I don't think so!

James wrote:
The righteous serve Him by their everlasting obedient service.  
The wicked serve Him as an everlasting object lesson of what 
happens to rebels.  These incorrigible rebels are located near 
earthly Jerusalem and are a visible object lesson to those who 
come out from the City of God (Isaiah 66:22-24, II Esdras 7:36).

Robert replies:
I don't take that as literally as you do, but will point out that 
the carcasses being eaten by worms in Isa. 66 are "dead" 
carcasses, not humans being eaten alive.

James wrote: 
Isaiah claims that people who come to worship God on the new 
earth will go out to be reminded of the consequences of rebellion 
against God (Isa  66:22-24). 

Robert replies:
Memorials remind us.  Abraham's memory of the smoke ascending 
from the plain reminded him. I doubt if any living in Abrahams 
day ever forgot that smoke.  I remember the World Trade Center 
Towers burning. We remember despite it all being history. The 
smoke thus can be said to go up forever.

James wrote:
Is it reasonable in the context of Isa 66 to take Isaiah's 
prophecy as a literal description of what happens? 

Robert replies:
If so, the carcasses are dead before eaten by worms?  How did the 
worms gain immortality?  Literal is literal.

James wrote:
Does the context demand that we take the verse to be figurative?  
There is nothing in the context of Isaiah 66 that on the face of 
it prohibits us from taking what Isaiah says in a very literal 
sense. 

 Robert wrote: 
Explain the immortal worms and why you transfer them to live 
humans, if you want to assert literalism.

James wrote:
In support of a literal view of hell being not far outside of 
Jerusalem on the new earth, we introduce Isa 34:9-10.  In that 
passage, Isaiah makes a peculiar claim regarding Edom, the land 
of the nation of Esau that lies to south of Jerusalem.  Isaiah 
foresees that Edom will be turned into fire and brimstone 
forever.  The fire of it will not be quenched night or day; the 
smoke thereof shall go up forever: from generation to generation 
it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever.  
Since Edom is certainly not like Isaiah's description at the 
present time, and Edom as a nation has ceased to exist, some have 
sought to find justification for redefining "eternal" as 
temporary based on the fact that Edom is nothing like the 
description in Isa 34:9-10.  Must we then resort to defining Isa 
34:9-10 as a figure of speech because we have not yet seen a 
literal fulfillment of it?  Is it possible that a literal 
fulfillment is yet in the future?  We now investigate the 
possibility that a literal fulfillment of Isa 34:9 is in God's 
plan for the future.

Robert replies:
Edom's judgment is an historical event, not a figure for the end 
of man.  We have a real problem here with the different 
interpretation of Isa. 34.

James wrote:
History tells us that the Hasmonean Jews conquered Edom around 
135 BC, but it even then did not become the land of burning pitch 
that Isaiah describes.  The Jews conquered Edom and gave them  
the choice to serve God or be annihilated.  They chose to serve 
God at least superficially.  Edom was at that time, and had been 
before, a very worldly-minded nation that was very opposed to 
Jacob/Israel (Ezek 25:12) even as their founding father, Esau, 
had been (Gen 27:41).  Herod the Great sprang from the Edomites 
and his career reflected much of the worldly and ungodly 
philosophy of the Edomites (Mt 2:16).  In none of these events 
however, do we find anything that approaches the description of 
fire and brimstone and eternal desolation pictured by Isaiah.

Robert replies:
No, but Edom that then was came to an end.  That is the meaning 
of the imagery. Literal fulfillment of the imagery in every 
detail is not necessary for fulfillment.

James wrote:
There has never been a complete and perpetual annihilation of 
Edom as described in Isaiah.  

Robert replies:
So, perhaps that means Isaiah was not trying to predict that.

James wrote:
People still live there today. Bozrah, Petra, and  other sites in 
Edom enjoy a brisk tourist business.  It certainly is not a 
perpetual waste as Isaiah describes it.  How then can the 
prophecy come true?  When taken in conjunction with Isa 66:22-24 
and the other prophecies regarding Gehenna, the meaning becomes 
clear.  Edom's land will become the site of the Lake of Fire.  
Let us now notice in more detail the text of Isa 66:22-24:

Robert replies:
The Edom that was existing when Isa 34 was made is gone forever.  
That fulfills the prophecy unless you demand literal fulfillment.  
You are missing the basis of all this imagery in Gen. 19. Sodom & 
Gomorrah were the original basis for the imagery of a "lake of 
fire".

The imagery throughout scripture of God's judgments -fire, total 
destruction, the ascending smoke, the permanent destruction, 
etc., is all rooted there.  

James wrote:
Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I 
will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your 
seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, 
and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship 
before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the 
men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not 
die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an 
abhorring unto all flesh.

It is clear from Isaiah's prophecy that the place of torment of 
the wicked is nearby to the place of worship on the new earth 
because people who come to worship God at Jerusalem go out to 
soberly reflect upon the fate of those who rebel against God.  
Likewise the sacred writings of the Jews attested to the place of 
torment being to the south of the place of worship.

Robert replies:
Difference in view about literal and figurative here.  If 
literal, again explain the carcasses and immortal worms.  

James wrote:
Enoch 90:24 And the judgment was held first over the stars [the 
fallen angels II Pet 2:4, Rev 9:1], and they were judged and 
found guilty, and went to the place of condemnation, and they 
were cast into an abyss, full of fire and flaming, and full 25 of 
pillars of fire.  And those seventy shepherds were judged and 
found guilty ["I am the good shepherd" Jn 10:11, "All that ever 
came before me are thieves and robbers" Jn 10:8], and they were 
cast 26 into that fiery abyss.  And I saw at that time how a like 
abyss was opened in the midst of the earth, full of fire, and 
they brought those blinded sheep, and they were all judged and 
found guilty and 27 cast into this fiery abyss, and they burned; 
now this abyss was to the right [based on standing at the house 
of God facing the sun rising] of that house.  And I saw those 
sheep burning and their bones burning

Enoch, a prophet of God (Jude 1:14), says that the fiery abyss is 
"to the right".  Since the reference of God's people is God's 
house (Ps 5:7) and toward the sun rising (Ezek 43:2), to the 
right would be to the south.  So according to Enoch the hell of 
fire is close to Jerusalem and to the south.  Likewise II Esdras 
7:33-38 also describes hell as being close by the City of God:

[33] And the Most High shall be revealed upon the seat of judgment, and compassion shall pass away, and patience shall be 
withdrawn;
[34] but only judgment shall remain, truth shall stand, and 
faithfulness shall grow strong.
[35] And recompense shall follow, and the reward shall be 
manifested; righteous deeds shall awake, and unrighteous deeds 
shall not sleep.
[36] Then the pit of torment shall appear, and opposite it shall 
be the place of rest; and the furnace of hell shall be disclosed, 
and opposite it the paradise of delight. 
[37] Then the Most High will say to the nations that have been 
raised from the dead, 'Look now, and understand whom you have 
denied, whom you have not served, whose commandments you have 
despised!
[38] Look on this side and on that; here are delight and rest, 
and there are fire and torments!'

Esdras says that the place of rest for God's people (the city of 
God-Heb 4:3, 11:10) is close to the pit of torment.  Therefore it 
appears from the prophecies in Isaiah, Enoch, and Esdras that at 
the Judgment the Lake of Fire will be located on a site to the 
south of Jerusalem.  It will appear at the same time that New 
Jerusalem comes down from heaven (Rev 21:2).  On a site to the 
right of the house of God (south), the Lake of Fire will occupy 
much of the land that once belonged to worldly Esau.  In that the 
Lake of Fire is to the south of Jerusalem, it corresponds to the 
type of the Valley of the Son of Hinnom (Gehenna), the lower end 
of which was also south of Jerusalem.  Gehenna (Josh 15:8, II Chr 
28:3) was a place of demons (I Cor 10:20) where humans were 
sacrificed and tortured in the flames (II Ki 23:10, II Chr 28:3, 
Jer 7:31); screaming, weeping and gnashing of teeth was heard; 
and later became a place where garbage was dumped.  Likewise we 
find the Lake of Fire to be a place where demons are thrown (Rev 
19:20, 20:10, 16:16), humans are to be tortured in fire (Rev 
14:11), and there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Lk 13:28).

Robert replies:
I'm not going to address apocryphal literature. I appreciate the 
amount of work you are doing here, but you wouldn't be very 
successful if you end up having proved your point in apocryphal 
literature. The rest of it has been addressed in the debate, I 
believe.  I would like to be able to spend  a little more time on 
this, James, but you have presented way too much material for me 
to address everything.  I think that most readers of the debate 
are not going to accept apocryphal literature as proof for the 
proposition.

James wrote:
Gehenna
The Bible uses the type of the Valley of Hinnom to give a picture 
of the Lake of Fire.  The Valley of Hinnom was a literal place 
nearby Jerusalem, but it is not the actual place where the wicked 
will be burned.  "Gehenna" that in the typical sense means "hell" 
or "hellfire" is derived from Hebrew ge-hinnom, meaning "valley 
of Hinnom", also known in the Old Testament as "the valley of the 
son(s) of Hinnom" (Josh 15:8).  Located west and south of 
Jerusalem and running into the Kidron Valley at a point opposite 
the modern village of Silwan, the valley of Hinnom once formed 
part of the boundary between the tribes of Judah and Benjamin 
(Josh. 15:8; 18:16; Neh. 11:30).  During the monarchical period, 
it became the site of an infamous high place (called "Topheth" 
and derived from an Aramaic word meaning "fireplace"), where some 
of the kings of Judah engaged in forbidden religious practices, 
including human sacrifice by fire (2 Chron. 28:3; 33:6; Jer. 
7:31; 32:35).  Because of this, Jeremiah spoke of its impending 
judgment and destruction (Jer. 7:32; 19:6).  King Josiah put an 
end to these practices by destroying and defiling the high place 
in the valley of Hinnom (2 Kings 23:10).

Robert replies:
Still, Gehenna provides no basis for either a literal or 
figurative interpretation for a view of never ending conscious 
torment of living human beings.

James wrote:
Probably because of these associations with fiery destruction and 
judgment, the word Gehenna came to be used metaphorically during 
the intertestamental period as a designation for hell or eternal 
damnation. In the New Testament, the word is used only in this 
way and never as a geographic place name.  As such, Gehenna is to 
be distinguished from Hades, which is the temporary abode of all 
the dead in general where the dead are held to await the Judgment 
(Acts 2:27, 31; Rev. 20:13-14). Though prior to the time of the 
resurrection of Christ even the saints were held captive in Hades 
(Lk 16:25), the souls of the saints are now in heaven with Christ 
(Eph 4:8, Php 1:23, Rev 6:10, Rev 20:4) while the souls of those 
who are not saints continue to go to Hades (Rev 20:13) where in 
torment they await the Judgment (Lk 12:48, Heb 9:27).  By 
contrast, the souls of the righteous enter heaven immediately 
upon death (II Cor 5:8-9, Php 1:23-24).  Jesus warned his 
disciples of committing sins that would lead to Gehenna (Matt. 
5:22, 29-30; 23:33; Mark 9:45; Luke 12:5).  In the New Testament, 
Gehenna designates the place or state of the final punishment of 
the wicked.  It is variously described as a fiery furnace (Matt. 
13:42, 50), an unquenchable fire (Mark 9:43), or an eternal fire 
prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41).  (The two 
paragraphs above are adapted from Harper's Bible Dictionary.)

Robert replies:
There is much assumption here.  Your view would have Abraham in 
Hades and Heaven at the same time.  God speaks of things that are 
not as though they were because His promise is sure (Rom. 4:17). 
Remember that time is nothing to God -  1000 years and one day 
the same.  That may be the same for those who are asleep awaiting 
the resurrection now.  I favor the view that when we die, it will 
seem like a moment until we are awakened unto the resurrection.  
Jesus told the apostles that He would come to get them so they 
could be with Him (John 14:1-3).  The righteous will be united 
with Christ at the resurrection.  The dead are asleep, awaiting 
the trumpet sound that wakes the dead to life.  But we surely 
don't have time to throw in a discussion regarding the 
intermediate state.

James writes
The Bible describes the place of punishment for the wicked by 
several names.  It is called a place of outer darkness where 
there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt 22:13, 24:51, 
25:30, Lk 13:28) and a place of everlasting fire (Mt 18:8, 25:41) 
and a place of eternal punishment (Mt 25:46 ASV) and the Lake of 
Fire (Rev 19:20, 20:10, 14, 15).  Because some have questioned 
that the above named places are identical, we submit the 
following reasoning:

Mt 25:41 The everlasting fire is the place prepared for the Devil  
Rev 20:10 The Devil is cast into the Lake of Fire  The Devil is 
cast into the everlasting fire

Robert replies:
We are not debating the fate of the devil.

James wrote:
Unquenchable fire is everlasting fire.
Mark 9:43 Gehenna is the place of unquenchable fire
The everlasting fire where Devil is cast is Gehenna, the Lake of 
Fire

Robert replies:
You are assuming a time element in the duration of the punishing 
process in the word "everlasting" as opposed to the duration of 
the effect. It simply isn't in the word.  "Eternal" sin, 
judgment, salvation, redemption, and fire (as in Jude 7) are not 
never ending processes, but things that have permanent results.  
So "eternal punishment".

James wrote:
Some also question whether "outer darkness" describes a place of 
fire.  Here is Bible reasoning regarding outer darkness and the 
Lake of Fire:

The wicked are punished by being thrown into outer darkness where 
there is weeping and gnashing of teeth Mt 8:12

The place where the wicked were thrown was a furnace of fire 
where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth Mt 13:42

Therefore the furnace of fire is a place of outer darkness where 
there is weeping and gnashing of teeth

Robert replies:
Nothing about how long this goes on.

James wrote:
The furnace of fire is a place where the wicked are cast at the 
end of the world Mt 13:41-42

The place where the wicked are cast at the end of the world is 
the Lake of Fire Rev 20:15

Therefore the furnace of fire is the Lake of Fire.

Robert replies:
Even if granted, nothing about the duration of this.

James wrote:
Since The Lake of Fire is the same as the furnace of fire, the 
Lake of Fire is a place of outer darkness where there is weeping 
and gnashing of teeth.  Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are the same 
place, so Gehenna is a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth.  
That place is a place of eternal fire, eternal torment, fire and 
brimstone, outer darkness, and weeping and gnashing of teeth.  It 
is the place where the Devil and his angels will be thrown for 
eternity (Rev 20:10).

Robert replies:
This still lacks proving the proposition.

James wrote:
The question naturally arises as to how one may be in outer 
darkness and at the same time be in a place where fire is burning 
and where men may be observed that are being tormented in the 
flames (Isa 66:24). 

Robert replies:
And the answer is that such language demands a figurative 
interpretation.

James wrote:
What Enoch says regarding the Judgment explains how Gehenna, the 
Lake of Fire, can be both visible and "outer darkness".  Enoch 
63:11 says, "And after that their faces shall be filled with 
darkness and shame before that Son of Man, and they shall be 
driven from his presence, and the sword shall abide before his 
face in their midst."

James wrote:
The mist of darkness on the face of the damned is the Bible's 
"outer darkness".  The blindness of the damned is outer darkness 
to them Mt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30, but they can be seen by others 
(Isa 66:23-24).  They cannot be recognized, and they cannot see 
because of the mist of darkness that is on their face (II Pet 
2:17).  II Esdras 7:[55(125)] corroborates Peter's testimony when 
it states, "Or that the faces of those who practiced self-control 
shall shine more than the stars [Mt 13:43], but our faces shall 
be blacker than darkness?"

Robert replies:
I'm sorry.  Not going to give Enoch that status.  I don't think 
it would help you if I did.


James wrote:
Hell is not a place where anyone would want to go, so it is hard 
to believe that some would be so depraved that they would refuse 
to repent, even under torment, but Enoch says that it is so (En 
50:4).  Nonetheless, many people will go there because of evil 
hearts and unbelief (Heb 3:11-12).  In order to impress upon our 
minds the awfulness of the place and to motivate men to avoid 
going there at all costs, God has described it as a place that is 
offensive to all five of our senses. 

God appealed to all our five senses to describe hell as a bad 
place:

1. Touch: pain from burning fire (Mt 25:42)
2. Taste: dry mouth, extreme thirst, blood from gnashing teeth 
(Mt 8:12)
3. Smell: rotting garbage-gehenna; rotten eggs-brimstone (Rev 
20:10)
4. Sight: smoke-fire; corruption-gehenna or black darkness (Rev 
14:11, Mt 25:30)
5. Sound: moaning, weeping, crying, screaming (Lk 13:28)

Hell is not just a ghost story designed to scare kids.  It is a 
most fearful and sober reality.  It is not merely a place where 
we are thrown and for a brief moment flare in a glorious flame 
before we sink into eternal oblivion, but it is an awful, awful 
place where the worm of our decay does not die (Mk 9:48, Isa 
66:24), the fire is not quenched (Mk 9:48), the smoke of our 
torment goes up forever (Rev 14:11), outer darkness abides 
forever and ever (Mt 8:12, 25:41), and we are a spectacle of 
shame to the redeemed through countless ages (Isa 66:24).  God 
forbid that we should go there, but go there we will, if we do 
not try to serve God.

Robert replies:
All of this has been addressed.

James wrote: 
Hell and the Justice of God The real issue and motivation 
underlying the eternal punishment discussion is a worthy attempt 
to defend the justice of God.  There would be no motivation for 
Ed Fudge, Al Maxey, Robert Dozier and others to produce such a 
patently wrong view of eternal punishment if behind it did not 
lie the problem of obvious injustice that our theology has God 
working on sinners.  Almost every teacher or preacher who has 
been teaching very long has experienced the question, "But what 
about those people that never heard?"  People recognize that it 
is unjust to eternally burn ignorant people.  God's justice in 
relation to those who never heard is a valid concern when our 
theology answers the question with, "They go to hell forever."  
We can see that such an unqualified sentence is unjust and 
unworthy of God is seen from the following considerations.

Robert replies:
Jude 7 changed my mind and caused me to reexamine it. All the 
problem with justice does is silence people from speaking their 
theology. 

James wrote:
Man is born into the world without any volition of his own (Jn 
1:13).  He is born into a fallen world where his very physical 
life from the moment of his conception is forfeit to Adam's sin 
(I Cor 15:22, Gen 3:19, 22, Heb 9:27).  In addition, due to his 
weakened fleshly nature (Mt 26:41) that came about as a result of 
the Fall (Gen 3:17), man has poor control over his faculties (Jas 
1:14, I Jn 2:16, Rom 7:15).  It is the universal experience of 
man that he inevitably falls into sin (Isa 53:6, I Ki 8:46, Rom 
3:23, 7:9) and transgresses whatever law of God he happens to be 
under.  If the man happens to be a man who never experienced the 
light of the gospel, by the prevalent theology his fate would be 
eternal punishment.  That is clearly unfair.  The man had no 
choice about coming into the world.  Though he theoretically did 
not have to sin, practically speaking, it is a foregone 
conclusion.  Since the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23) and he 
has nothing with which to pay the debt incurred by his sin, he is 
by all accounts doomed to eternal hell.  Because of the obvious 
injustice in sending someone to an eternal hell who did not know 
and could not prevent his sin, Fudge, Maxey and others have 
sought to soften the blow and render the punishment of wicked a 
little less draconian and a little more in harmony with justice 
than our present thinking would allow. The Catholics have 
followed a similar course in their doctrine of purgatory.  Both 
Catholics and Protestants perceive a difficulty in sending men to 
eternal torment who did not know better and could not help their 
state.   

Certainly all would allow that the sinner is worthy of 
punishment, but eternal suffering seems more than justice would 
allow.  For the believer, however, the answer is not trying to 
contravene the clear teaching of the scripture on eternal 
punishment, but it is rather to be willing to take what God says 
about the Judgment.  Since the Bible certainly teaches eternal 
conscious torment (Rev 14:11, 20:10), what then is the solution 
of the dilemma for the wicked?  God provides the answer, if we 
are willing to hear.

In Luke 12:48 Jesus provides a key to the solution of the justice 
of the eternal judgment of God.  Jesus promises that those who 
were ignorant of God's will and yet sinned anyway will be 
punished, but they will receive "few stripes".  What does "few 
stripes" mean?  Does it mean a cooler spot in Hell?  That cannot 
be, for by no stretch of the imagination can one get "few 
stripes" out of "eternal punishment", even if the stripes were 
inflicted with a wet noodle.  "Few stripes" indicates a temporal 
punishment, even as Dozier and others seek to extract out of 
"eternal punishment".  The "few stripes" of the Bible, however, 
are administered during this present age.  We see them 
administered in Lk 16:24 where Dives in Hades proclaims, "I am 
tormented in this flame".  The wicked endure punishment in the 
flames of Hades until the resurrection.  Then they are brought 
before God where a true Judgment occurs.  In contrast to our 
theology that says that judgment occurs at the moment of death, 
God says the Judgment occurs after the Resurrection (Mt 25:31ff, 
Lk 19:15, Syb Orc 2:404-413, 8:295-299).   

At this point most Christians would agree with the general 
scenario of death, torment in Hades for the wicked, and the 
Resurrection.  Most people do not accept what God says happens 
next.  There is a real, genuine Judgment of life and death.  It 
can be a real Judgment because a determination is made at that 
time based not only on what people did in their lives, but also 
their attitude after they found out that they were sinners in the 
hands of an angry God.  Enoch the prophet (Jude 1:14) says in En 
50:2-4,

And the righteous shall be victorious in the name of the Lord of 
Spirits: And He will cause the others [the nations-JRJ] to 
witness (this) That they may repent And forgo the works of their 
hands. 
3 They [the nations-JRJ] shall have no honour through the name of 
the Lord of Spirits, Yet through His name shall they be saved, 
And the Lord of Spirits will have compassion on them, For His 
compassion is great.
4 And He is righteous also in His judgment,

Though the Bible does not explicitly state that men can repent 
after death as clearly as Enoch does, the Bible requires that we 
necessarily conclude what Enoch expressly states.  The Bible 
states that the righteous will be given rule over those of the 
nations to whom God grants life.  For example  

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the 
world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy 
to judge the smallest matters?

3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things 
that pertain to this life?

Paul makes it explicitly clear that the judgment of which God 
speaks in I Cor 6 is not exercised in this life.  It is a 
position of authority granted to the righteous to be over the 
nations on the new earth (I Cor 6:3).  Paul's picture of the 
saints in authority over the nations agrees with very many OT and 
NT prophecies (Rev 2:27, Lk 19:17, Isa 61:4, Isa 14:1,2, Isa 
54:3, Isa 61:6, Amos 9:12, Micah 5:8, Ps 47:3, Isa 45:11, Dt 
28:13, Zech 2:8, Rev 3:21, I Cor 6:2-3, Mt 5:5, II Tim 4:8, I Cor 
9:25, Jas 1:12, I Pet 5:4, Rev 2:10).  Since God gives a promise 
to the saints that they will rule over the nations, if someone 
obeyed God in this life, he would be among the redeemed and have 
the blessings promised to the righteous (Acts 2:38-39, Rev 2:10).  
The fact that there are multitudes among the nations who serve 
the sons of God implies that they do not receive the blessings of 
sons, and hence do not serve God in this life. These of the 
nations receive eternal life, but they do not receive the 
adoption as sons (Gal 4:5).  Those among the nations who inherit 
the earth (Mt 5:5) are saved from hell, but they do not receive 
access to God (Rev 22:15).  The Judgment is therefore a true 
judgment where men's eternal destinies are determined.

We should also notice the judgment of the nations in Mt 25:31ff.  
In that judgment of the nations, we do not find a single 
reference to whether those being judged used one cup or many, or 
whether they used Bible classes, or believed premillennialism, or 
had their women cover their heads during worship, or used 
instruments of music, or partook of the Lord 's Supper every 
first day of the week.  The judgment there is all about what it 
means to be a basic decent human.  There is no indication that 
these people even knew anything about Jesus, because they asked 
when they did what He accused them of doing (Mt 25:39).  It is 
clear in Mt 25 that Jesus is judging the nations based upon their 
basic decency as human beings.  These nations were not religious 
people who were attempting to serve God.  The righteous are 
judged first and are thereafter present with Christ at the 
judgment of the nations (I Pet 4:17, Lk 19:15, 27, Mt 25:10, II 
Esdras 2:43).  When the nations are judged, the brethren of 
Christ have already received their kingdoms (Lk 19:17, 19) and 
are present at the Judgment helping Christ in the separation of 
the nations (Mt 25:40, I Cor 6:2).

The point of this discussion in reference to eternal punishment 
is that from the above considerations, it is clear that God is 
eminently fair and just at the Judgment.  He pardons those people 
who suffered temporal punishment in Hades who knew nothing of His 
grace provided they display a penitent and submissive heart after 
they discover their error.  Regarding those who refuse to repent 
after they have learned about Him and have seen firsthand from 
their suffering in Hades what God can do, if then God responds 
justly to their continued rebellion?  He is left with but little 
choice but to send them to eternal hell.  Also, for those people 
who knew God's will in the present age and reviled it, their case 
is as the Hebrew writer intimates in Heb 10:29, "Of how much 
sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who 
hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the 
blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy 
thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"  Those 
people who knew God and opposed God and His people will be given 
up to death (Lk 12:47, Mk 16:16, II Pet 2:21, II Baruch 72:5), 
because they fully deserve it.  They adamantly refused to serve 
God in life, but they will serve Him eternally in their death 
(Isa 66:23-24, Rev 21:8).  God's judgment is eminently fair, 
because only those who have known God's will and rejected it (Heb 
10:29, II Pet 2:22) or learned about it in Hades and refused to 
repent (En 50:4) or who have been utterly wicked (En 103:7-8, 
22:13) will experience the second death.  Seeing then the mercy 
of God toward those ignorant but penitent among the nations who 
could not help their situation, God is entirely fair to send 
those who continue to resist to eternal torment.  There is no 
need to rework the scriptures in an attempt to arrive at a 
scenario in which God is justified in His judgments.  The 
scriptures justify God in His judgments in what they say 
regarding the judgment of the nations.

Robert replies:
Your view is certainly a possibility.  I believe the judgment 
will be a real judgment. Exceptions to the rules may be made for 
special circumstances, but the nature of the judgment is not what 
we are debating, though your view does soften the apparent 
harshness of the traditional view.  I appreciate again your work 
here, but am not sure that it is germane to the real issue of our 
debate, which has to do with the duration of the administration 
of the punishment of the lost. I don't have any real disagreement 
with the principle that the judgment is real, not just a 
formality.

James wrote:
Hell is Eternal
We have already discussed some scriptures that teach that hell is 
unending.  In an attempt to circumvent the force of these 
scriptures, some argue that time is not the issue with regard to 
hell, but rather its permanence.  They argue that the sentence of 
God is what is permanent rather than the punishment.  In contrast 
to the view that hell is temporary, we notice the positive 
teaching of the scriptures regarding hell.  We notice that the 
fires of hell are permanent.  Mt 18:8 says that its fire is 
"everlasting".  Mk 9:48 says, "The fire is not quenched".  The 
word "everlasting" in "everlasting fire" in Mt 25:41 is exactly 
the same word as is found in "everlasting life" (Mt 19:29, Lk 
18:30).  The fires of hell are said to last as long as the 
righteous are said to live.  We do not conclude from the Bible 
description of Gehenna that it burns for a while and then goes 
out.  We conclude that it actually and literally serves as a 
place of torment forever.  Why, then, if "everlasting fire" is a 
fire burning forever, is not "everlasting punishment" an act of 
punishing forever?  The eternal fire (Jude 1:7) visited upon 
Sodom and Gomorrah went out upon the earth, but the same fire 
still burns eternally in the Lake of Fire (Ex 20:11, En 18:10-
15). 

Robert replies:
I believe you are putting things together that have not been put 
together in the scriptures to come up with this.  I have 
addressed the lake of fire.  It is imagery based on the 
destruction of Sodom.  It probably would have looked like a lake 
of fire burning.  One could even say that it was a literal lake 
of fire, though that expression as used later is imagery.

James wrote:
The fire and brimstone poured in cataracts upon the earth at the 
end of the world (II Pet 3:7, Syb Orc 3:63-67, 3:98-106, 3:861-
871) that burns the wicked from the earth like chaff (Lk 3:17) is 
from the same everlasting fire that burns ceaselessly in hell, 
though the fire eventually goes out on the earth (Mal 4:3, Syb 
Orc 4:227-236).  The everlasting fire burns ceaselessly in hell, 
but when separated from its source in hell, eventually goes out.  
Enoch explicitly states that the Lake of Fire burns endlessly (En 
10:13-14, 67:13, 91:9, 108:2-6).  Though fire taken from hell 
eventually goes out, the fires in the lake itself will never be 
extinguished (Mk 9:48).

Robert replies:
The phrase "unquenchable fire" has to do with it not being 
extinguishable, not that it cannot go out after having consumed 
its "fuel".

James wrote:
In Rev 20:10 John says the Devil is cast into the Lake of Fire 
where he is tormented day and night forever and ever.  No one 
doubts the justice of the perpetual punishment of the Devil.  
After all, with malice aforethought he tempted Adam and Eve to 
commit a capital crime (Jn 8:44), and thereby put to death both 
Adam and Eve and over forty billion of their descendants (Rom 
5:12, I Cor 15:22).  It is Satan who is directly responsible for 
the billions who eternally perish.  It is Satan who has abetted 
every atrocity, every malignity, every corruption, and every 
travesty since the beginning of creation.  Certainly, we could 
not imagine such malignancy being met with anything less than 
torment day and night forever and ever.  However, the description 
of what is given to the Devil is exactly the same as what is 
given to the damned.  Rev 20:14 says, "[The Devil] shall be 
tormented day and night forever and ever".  Rev 14:11 says the 
smoke of the torment of the wicked "ascendeth up forever and 
ever: and they have no rest day nor night".  There is no 
difference between the punishment of the Devil and the punishment 
of the damned.  In fact, Mt 25:41 even specifies that the 
everlasting fire into which the damned are cast is the same fire 
in which the Devil is cast.  The same fire that perpetually 
torments the Devil also perpetually punishes the damned. Since 
the everlasting, unquenchable fire does not ever end for the 
Devil, on what basis do we conclude that it ends for the damned 
who are with him?

Robert replies:
Again, I believe this is imagery.  It is not the same thing for 
the devil and the lost.  The smoke ascending "forever" does not 
mean that souls are being tormented "forever".  The towering 
smoke is imagery from Sodom.  When Abraham saw the smoke 
ascending, there was not any longer life in Sodom.  The divine 
fire consumes quickly.  This fire is seen in the consuming of 
Nadab& Abihu as well as the prophets of Baal.  The wicked would 
have to be raised with asbestos bodies or bodies that heal 
themselves of third degree burns as fast as they are incurred for 
your scenario to stand a chance.

James wrote:
Consider the assertion that men are burned up in the flames of 
hell.  We know that angels and the Devil both have spirit 
dimensions (Heb 1:7, Eph 6:12, II Cor 11:14).  However, we do not 
have any problem with the Devil (a spirit) being tormented 
endlessly.  We also do not conclude that he eventually burns up 
and is annihilated because of the flame.  Why then, since men 
have a spirit made in the image of God, do we suppose that the 
flame burns up the spirit that is in man?  There is no evidence 
whatever that fire can destroy a spirit.  Spirits can become fire 
(Heb 1:7, II Thes 1:8).  The saints can be baptized in it (Mt 
3:11).  The souls in Hades endure it for centuries (Lk 16:24).  
It does not destroy them.  Why should the fire destroy the damned 
when God says they are to suffer as objects of the act of 
unending punishing?

Robert replies:
I don't have to explain Mt. 10:28 to believe it.  Whatever it is 
that the spirit of man is comprised of, when joined to the body, 
it produces a living soul.  God CAN destroy both and will do so 
in regards to those He sends to Hell.  The lost sinner is raised, 
but not given immortality. There is no asbestos body given to the 
resurrected sinner or immortality given to worms with worms with 
asbestos bodies. I suspect that "eternal fire" destroys asbestos 
as well.

James wrote:
In support of the thesis that eternal punishment is unending 
punishing, the following scriptures are introduced for your
consideration:

Mt 25:46 ASV And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but 
the righteous into eternal life.

Robert replies:
Life infers consciousness, thus "eternal life" is permanent life. 
The phrase "eternal destruction" describes a permanent 
destruction.  Those destroyed will never raise again.  The second 
death is final.  To argue that the administration of eternal life 
and punishment are the same is to argue for unending dying and 
unending resurrecting.

James wrote:
"Eternal" means "perpetual, eternal, forever, everlasting".  
"Punishment" is the "act of punishing".  The wicked are to 
receive "eternal punishment" or they are the objects of the 
"perpetual act of punishing".

Robert replies:
See my first affirmative for thoughts on eternal.

James wrote:
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is 
better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, 
than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their 
worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

There is no end to the existence of the wicked. Something about 
them endures for the same duration as the unquenchable fire.

Robert replies:
Already covered.

James wrote:
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, 
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for 
the devil and his angels:

The damned burn in the same place and for the same duration, as 
do the Devil and his angels.  If the everlasting fire does not 
annihilate the evil spirits when they are cast into it, why would 
the flames annihilate the spirit of man that is made in the image 
of the everlasting God?

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false 
prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived 
them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that 
worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a Lake of 
Fire burning with brimstone

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into 
the Lake of Fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false 
prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and 
ever.

The beast, the false prophet and the Devil are all cast into the 
Lake of Fire that burns forever.  There they will be tormented 
forever.

Robert replies:
Again, this is imagery.  Even if taken literally, it doesn't 
teach the never ending conscious torment of the lost.

James wrote:
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell [Hades] were cast into the 
Lake of Fire. This is the second death.

The place of the dead is made to co-exist with the Lake of Fire.  
The spirits in Gehenna have no place to which they can depart 
(Gen 35:18). They eternally experience the pangs of death (Acts 
2:24), but cannot be loosed from them (Mk 9:48).

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book 
of life was cast into the Lake of Fire.

The Lake of Fire becomes the abode of all those to whom God did 
not grant life. 

Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand 
and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; 
there shall be > weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The place of torment is dark and painful.  Once put there, men 
cannot escape.

Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer 
darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out 
into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of 
teeth.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were 
before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men. to whom 
is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

The place of torment is a place of Stygian darkness.
Men are tormented and weep and gnash their teeth.

Robert replies:
Again, nothing said that this is unending.

James wrote:
Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I 
will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your 
seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, 
and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship 
before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the 
men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not 
die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an 
abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not 
quenched.
The place of torment does not end.

The following texts are taken from ancient Jewish writings that 
were at one time considered sacred.  These texts were excluded 
from the Jewish canon between AD 100-125 and from the Christian 
canon in AD 397.  They are presented here for your consideration 
as texts that were considered genuine by early Christians (Jude 
1:14).  The reader can see for himself that these texts are 
consistent with the accepted biblical texts.
Enoch 10:11-14

And the Lord said unto Michael: Go, bind Semjaza [a fallen angel] 
and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to 
have defiled themselves [Gen 6:1-2] 12 with them in all their 
uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another, and they 
have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast 
for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day 
of their judgment and of their consummation, till the judgment 
that is 13 forever and ever is consummated.  In those days they 
shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and 14 to the torment and 
the prison in which they shall be confined forever.

Enoch 62:8 And all the elect shall stand before him on that day.
9 And all the kings and the mighty and the exalted and those who 
rule the earth Shall fall down before him on their faces, And 
worship and set their hope upon that Son of Man, And petition him 
and supplicate for mercy at his hands.
10 Nevertheless that Lord of Spirits will so press them That they 
shall hastily go forth from His presence, And their faces shall 
be filled with shame, And the darkness grow deeper on their 
faces.
11 And He will deliver them to the angels for punishment, To 
execute vengeance on them because they have oppressed His 
children and His elect 
12 And they shall be a spectacle for the righteous> and for His 
elect: [Isa 66:23-23, Lk 19:27, Mk 9:44]

II Baruch 44:14
These are they who have acquired for themselves
treasures of wisdom, And with them are found stores of 
understanding, And from mercy have they not withdrawn,
And the truth of the law have they preserved.
15 For to them shall be given the world to come,
But the dwelling of the rest who are many shall be in the fire.'

The Sibylline Oracles were apparently part of God's very ancient 
revelation to the Gentiles.  It is part of what they did not wish 
to retain in their memory of which Paul speaks in Rom 1:21, 25.  
The Oracles are filled with information regarding the end of the 
world.  It was quoted as scripture by some early Christians.

Sib Orc 8:288

Faithful and faithless mortals shall see God
The Most High with the saints at the end of time.
290 And of men bearing flesh he judges souls
Upon his throne, when sometime the whole world
Shall be a desert and a place of thorns.
And mortals shall their idols cast away
And all wealth. And the searching fire shall burn
295 Earth, heaven, and sea; and it shall burn the gates,
Of Hades' prison. Then shall come all flesh
Of the dead to the free light of the saints;
But the lawless shall that fire whirl round and round.
For ages.

The following words from the Bible in the original language that 
are translated "forever", "everlasting", or "eternal". 
The numbers given are Strong's numbers.  For each of the words we 
give a definition from one of the lexicographers (Strong, Thayer,
Brown-Driver-Briggs).  The definition is followed by a sample 
scripture in which the original word is found that in most cases 
clearly means "unending".  The sample verse is followed by my 
brief comment emphasizing the unending nature of the word in the 
verse.

Robert replies:
I find this interesting, but not acceptable as "scripture" per 
the debate.

James wrote:
forever H0753
from 748; length: KJV -- + forever, length, long.
E.g. Ps 21:4 regarding the Messiah

4 He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of 
days forever and ever. (H0753)

There is no end to the life of the Messiah.

His "length of days" is permanent.

forever H3605 H3117
always, continually, as long as
3605 properly, the whole; hence, all, any or every 3117 day

2 Chronicles 21:7 Howbeit the LORD would not destroy the house of 
David, because of the covenant that he had made with David, and 
as he promised to give a light to him and to his sons forever. 
(H3605 H3117)

There is no end to God's promise that David would have a light to him and his sons.

Robert replies:
Nor is there any end to the punishment that the lost will incur.  
The administration of ends, but it is final.  Many things said to 
eternal are permanent, though not of endless duration as far as 
process are concerned.

James wrote:
forever H4481 H5957
forever
4481 from; out of; by; by reason of; at; more than.

5957 remote time, i.e. the future or past indefinitely; often 
adverb,
Daniel 2:20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the
name of God forever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: 
(H4481 H5957)

The name of God is to be blessed without end.

Forever:
forever H5331
eminence; perpetuity; strength; victory; enduring; 
everlastingness; enduring of life; endurance in time; perpetual; 
continual; unto the end; everlastingness; ever.
Ps 68:16 Why leap ye, ye high hills? this is the hill which God 
desireth to dwell in; yea, the LORD will dwell in it forever. 
(H5331)

God will dwell in Zion without end (Micah 4:7)

forever H5703
perpetuity; forever; continuing future; ancient (used of past 
time); forever (used of future time); used of continuous 
existence; forever (used of God's existence).

Micah 4:5b we will walk in the name of the LORD our God forever 
and ever.
(H5703)

There is no end to Israel's walking in the name of the Lord.

forever H5704
as far as; even to; until; up to; while; as far as; used of 
space: as far as; up to; even to; in combination: from... as far 
as; both... and (with `min'; from); used of time: even to; until; 
unto; till; during; end; used of degree: to the degree of; even 
like; to the point that; so that even.
Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given 
unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt;
and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and 
their children's children forever: and my servant David shall be 
their prince forever. (H5704)

Jacob will dwell in the land God gave him for the same duration 
as Jesus rules over the world, that is, without end (Lk
1:33).

forever H5769
forever, always, of old, everlasting, perpetual long duration; 
antiquity; futurity; forever; ever; everlasting; evermore; 
perpetual; old; ancient; world; ancient time; long time (used of 
the past); (used of the future); forever; always; continuous 
existence; perpetual; everlasting; indefinite or unending future 
eternity.
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as 
one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his 
hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live 
forever:(H5769)

God did not want man to physically live without end.

Robert replies:
The living forever is because life would be sustained by the tree 
of life.  For this to be the same idea as the idea you support 
regarding the punishing of the lost, it would be saying that 
there would be non-stop eating of the tree of life.

James wrote:
WEBMASTER’S NOTE:
IN THE INTEREST OF SPACE THE READER IS REFERRED BACK TO THE 
AFFIRMATIVE WHERE THESE DEFINITIONS ARE GIVEN.

Robert replies:
I do not disagree about the never ending nature of the final 
punishment of the lost.  Those punished now with death will 
recover from that punishment in the resurrection.  The lost will 
not recover from the second death, the destruction of body and 
soul. It is "forever" or "eternal" or permanent and irrevocable.

James wrote:
Conclusion

Clearly the Bible contains the concept of endless existence.  The 
concept of the endless existence of the wicked in conscious 
punishment is conveyed using exactly the same words that are used 
to describe the endless existence of God.  God is just in sending 
those who are still unrepentant after temporal punishment in the 
fires of Hades to the unending fire of the Lake of Fire.  The 
smoke of those cast into the Lake of Fire goes up forever and 
ever, their worm does not die, and they have no rest day or night 
forever.  May God grant that we all avoid that awful place.

Robert replies:
Amen to all possible avoiding the place where eternal punishment 
is administered.

I believe you are essentially making these arguments:

The word "eternal" demands it.  I have addressed this quite 
substantially in my affirmatives. You admit that it could be 
point action with permanent results, so the word "eternal" won't 
cinch it one way or the other.  I believe it points to the 
permanence of the effect of the punishment, not the duration of 
the punishing. 

You assert that the phrases "unquenchable fire", "torment of 
their smoke goes up forever", "worms that dieth not", etc., 
inhere never ending punishing.  I believe these phrases are 
imagery of a death, destruction, consumption of bodies, etc., 
imposed by God and never recovered from by man.  As Sodom will 
never be forgotten, so the punishment of the lost, but both are 
temporary in execution.

You also argue the immortality of the spirit of man at present 
necessarily infers it. I do not believe that we have immortal 
spirits.  We are made in the image of God, but nothing about 
immortal spirits is ever attributed to man.  Jesus said that God 
both can and will destroy body and soul in Hell. 

The loss of life on earth is a great punishment.  The loss of 
eternal life, from a quality standpoint, is even greater.  

Robert Dozier