Dozier/Johnson Debate on Eternal Punishment

 
 
 Proposition: 
 The scriptures teach that the punishment of lost man is a final, 
irrevocable punishment that culminates in annihilation, rather 
than never ending conscious torment.

Affirm:  Robert Dozier
Deny:  James Johnson
My first affirmative consisted of four points...

- What does "eternal" mean?

- What is the idea of "punishment"?

- What is "Hell" or Gehenna?

Other Considerations 
-	(Justice, "Good News"?, God or Godfather?) 

Let me first address James introductory remarks – 

I appreciate James response and attention to the first 
affirmative.  He did introduce a few new thoughts to the 
discussion (worms that die not, fire that is not quenched, Mt. 
25:46 parallel use of "eternal", Rev. 14:11, "ascending smoke" 
,etc.,) that should really be saved for his affirmatives, but I 
don't mind as we are both interested in having a substantive 
discussion and getting to the heart of the matter as soon as 
possible.

James also mentioned the question as to whether or not a spirit 
can be destroyed and whether or not the spirit of man is 
immortal.  Again, this is not answering my first affirmative 
although I did  mention that this is one of the areas that makes 
it a complex subject. I will try to address that briefly if 
possible, but again, that is not affirmative material for me.

Now let's look at James examination of my affirmative arguments 
against the idea that "eternal punishment" is never ending 
conscious torment that it culminates in  annihilation.

Regarding Mt. 10:28 & Lk. 12:5.  The scriptures say exactly what 
I say they taught.  God CAN destroy both body and soul in Hell 
(Mt. 10:28).  That God uses Hell to destroy that which he has 
killed does not conflict with the idea of it (the destruction of 
body and soul)being a second death in Rev. 20. Whether or not the 
lost are killed and then destroyed or it is all one process makes 
little difference.  Luke 12:5 makes it sound like the lost are 
killed then destroyed, but that may just be fitting in with the 
imagery of Gehenna.  Gehenna was a place to destroy trash, not 
execute criminals.  Unclaimed dead bodies or the bodies of dead 
animals and enemy combatants might be cast there as well, but no 
live bodies were cast into the flames of Gehenna as a method of 
punishment. In the parable of the tares, it sounds more like the 
death and destruction occur simultaneously (Mt. 13:50). These are 
two different illustrations, thus some difference in detail is 
not surprising.  Details of imagery cannot be pressed too hard. 

2 Cor. 5:6-8 say nothing regarding the wicked.  

I do not deny that physical death is a separation of body and 
spirit, but it is not a separation of body and soul.  The spirit 
in the body is a living soul.  The body apart from the spirit is 
dead. I am sure there is much about the spirit, soul, etc., that 
we do not understand, but whatever the spirit is, it does not 
give man immortal status as "only God hath immortality" (1 Tim. 
6:16) and whatever it is, and however it relates to body and 
soul, God can destroy it all.  

Rom 8:10 has nothing to do with  physical death, but the death to 
sin that the Christian has experienced (Rom. 6:2-11).

We agree that "eternal" transcends time but that it doesn't 
necessarily eliminate it.  My point about the word "eternal" was 
that it is a word relating to another realm, where time is not 
primary, and relates to God, whose will cannot be thwarted.  The 
inherent aspect of eternal is not time, but the permanence, 
irrevocability, unchangeableness of that which is described as 
"eternal", regardless of how long it lasts from a time consideration.  

I don't really think that "age lasting" is an universal 
definition of "eternal" although some things described as 
"eternal" are only "age lasting" (see references to OT usage in 
first affirmative or Ex 12:24; 40:15 to illustrate)and sometimes 
they have a shorter or longer duration.  

In my attempt to show that "eternal" is not a word that is 
primarily concerned with time, but the divine nature and realm, I 
was not trying to say that "eternal" in reference to "punishment" 
is necessarily of finite duration.  In order for "eternal 
punishment" to convey the idea of never ending conscious torment, 
then one must have BOTH "eternal" being a time oriented word 
inhering never ending duration and "punishment" being an ongoing 
process - a "punishING"...If "eternal punishment" means "never 
ending punishing", my proposition is in a world of hurt, but if 
"eternal punishment" is never ending punishment, my proposition 
is fine.  Corporal punishing is not the same as corporal 
punishment.  Capital punishment is not the same as Capital 
punishing, nor is "eternal punishment" equal to eternal 
punishing. Spank a child for 30 seconds and it will be needed 
again soon. Corporal punishment is neither never ending punishing 
or short duration punishing, it is a class of punishment that may 
vary is length of administration and time before it is needed 
again.  Capital punishment is likewise a class of punishment. 
Hanging takes longing than lethal injection to kill, and both are 
temporary as all will be resurrected. Eternal punishment is a 
class of punishment that God imposes.  It is a divine punishment 
that may vary from individual to individual as to the duration of 
the administration of the punishment (Lk. 12:47-48) but all 
eternal punishment will be permanent, never recovered from. There 
is no resurrection to recover one from the "second death".  I am 
fine with saying that "eternal punishment" is never ending 
punishment, but not never ending punishING.  The word "eternal" 
describes the class of punishment, not the duration of the 
administration of it. 

I trust that addresses the "time" aspects of the discussion for 
now. To say that "eternal punishment" is "without end" is fine by 
me. It really is not just an issue as to how "eternal" is to be 
understood, but how "punishment" is to be understood.  The word 
"eternal" can be either of finite or infinite duration, but 
"punishment" says nothing about the duration of the 
administration of the punishing associated with this punishment.  
The fact is  that this punishment is from God (eternal) and that 
it is a punishment as opposed to a reward. That is all the phrase 
"eternal punishment" inheres. If "eternal punishment" must mean 
never ending conscious punishing or never ending putting to 
death, then "eternal life" must mean never ending resurrecting of 
bodies and meeting the Lord in the air, etc.  Both "eternal life" 
and "eternal punishment" are the end of the road for their 
respective participants, but neither get stuck in the process of 
getting there. In  considering  "eternal life", it is "life" that 
inheres ongoing conscious existence. This "life" is eternal or 
from God, thus permanent. But, again the never ending aspect of 
"eternal life", from a duration standpoint is found in the word 
"life" not the word "eternal".

James admits that it is possible for "eternal punishment" to be a 
reference to a limited duration punishment from an administration 
standpoint with unlimited duration as relates to the permanence 
of the punishment.  That is what I affirm.  I affirm that the 
description of just what "eternal punishment" consists of is 
found in the many, many passages found in simple non figurative 
or non apocalyptic contexts where the fate of the wicked is 
described.  The punishment is 'eternal", thus a divinely imposed 
punishment from which there is no recovery, thus it never ends. 
That still doesn't tell us just what the punishment is.  Other 
texts define the punishment.

What is the "punishment" the scriptures describe as "eternal".  

Many scriptures tell us what the "life" that is described as 
"eternal" is. It is life in a mansion, or if you take the party 
pooper view of Jn. 14:1-3, a life in "dwelling places".  It is a 
life in a new heavens and a new earth (2 Pet. 3:13).  It is life 
without sin, sickness, etc. (Rev. 21-22).  So the "punishment" is 
described as being comparable to chaff that Christ will "burn up" 
(Mt. 3) is said to be the destruction of body and soul in 
Gehenna, where both the words and imagery point to annihilation , 
not never ending conscious torment. Acts 3:23 says the soul will 
be "utterly destroyed".  If eternal punishment is never ending 
conscious torment, then either the Holy Spirit is a poor 
communicator or the translators of our versions are incompetent.  
The lost "perish" (John 3:16).  The wages of sin are "death" 
(Rom. 6:23). It is "everlasting destruction from the face of the 
Lord" (2 Thess. 1:9) and it is the Lord that we are dependent 
upon for life, as Paul said, "in him we live and move and have 
our being" (Acts 17:28). Who sustains the consciousness of the 
lost in never ending torment?  The devil?  He has no such power 
attributed to him.  2 Thess 2:8 says the Lord will "slay" (ASV 
footnote, "consume") and "bring to naught" the lost.  Heb. 10:27 
says that God will "devour" the adversaries. Rev. 20:14 says the 
result of being cast into the lake of fire as pertains to lost 
humanity is "the second death". Rev. 21:8 speaks of "the second 
death".  After the first death, there is a resurrection of all 
men (John 5:28-29; Heb. 9:27).  The second death is final. The 
penalty of sin is eternal punishment, not eternal  punishing. 

Do words mean anything?  Is God trying to communicate never 
ending conscious torment in these passages? How would God 
communicate to us the idea of annihilation if this is not it?  
While I do not disparage the use of lexicons or the study of 
language to help understand the scriptures, it should be evident 
to us, that if we base our view of eternal punishment on the 
literal interpretation of figurative language and then have to 
explain that the language in simple and more literal contexts 
i.e. "burn up", "utterly destroy", "perish", "death", "slay" (or 
consume), "bring to naught", etc., doesn't mean what the many 
translators translated them as meaning, and we have to define, 
parse, etc., the words to make them fit into our literalizing of 
figurative language based views, that we need to rethink our 
approach.  

Should we interpret the obvious illustration of Jesus is alluding 
to Gehenna literally (and then add things to it that were not 
even in the literal Gehenna, such as conscious suffering) and 
then force all the words of Jesus and The Holy Spirit in much 
more simple and literal contexts to fit our viewpoint?  What is 
"eternal punishment"?  If we approach the scriptures and go from 
the simple to the complex, use the literal to understand the 
figurative, the evidence points to annihilation.  If we decide 
the obviously figurative ideas (For example, Gehenna) are to be 
understood literally, then we are forced to parse the simple and 
apparently literal contexts into definitions that can be fit into 
our initial impressions.  The religious culture has been 
indoctrinated by the Roman Catholic view of eternal punishment 
and with that view as a starting point has been forced to make 
the many many simple and literal descriptions of "eternal 
punishment" fit this view.  It's time for an entire reexamination 
of the thought process that has gone into this.  

And words convey thoughts, not just compile definitions.  
Physical death does involve a separation of body and spirit, but 
the word "death" in the scriptures depicts a state that man is 
helpless to deliver himself from. There is finality in death to 
the human mind that is conveyed in the scriptures. Thus death, 
when used to describe one's spiritual condition is not just 
defining it as a separation between man and God, but pointing out 
the hopeless estate of the sinner (Eph. 2:1-3). Only God is our 
hope (Eph. 2:4 - "But God...") 

Just because something is described as "eternal" doesn't mean 
that it is of endless duration.  As noted in the first 
affirmative, "eternal sin" is not eternal sinning, but sin that 
"hath never forgiveness" (Mk. 3:30).  "Eternal salvation"  and 
"Eternal redemption" are "once for all" provisions. likewise 
"eternal judgment" is a day in which a judgment will be rendered  
that we cannot appeal or overturn or escape. The "eternal fire" 
that destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah was brief in duration from a time 
standpoint of administration but a fire that could not be 
quenched or put out until it had consumed all there. It was a 
divine fire (Heb. 12:28) 

The fires of Gehenna are the fires of Gehenna.   Jesus was not 
using Gehenna as a base idea to build on other aspects, but as an 
figure of the horrible nature and shame of divine punishment.  
Gehenna always had a fire as there was always trash, carcasses, 
dead bodies, etc., to consume.  There wasn't any conscious 
torment taking place in Gehenna, just destruction of trash and 
dead carcasses, whether animal or human.  Gehenna cannot be 
embellished to prove never ending fire as the fires of Gehenna 
did consume the objects of their flames, but more and more 
objects were being added all the time, thus the fire was kept 
burning.   In the traditional view of Gehenna, you have fire 
burning, but never consuming.  Sounds more like Daniel 3 than the 
Gehenna the Jews of Jerusalem knew about.  The "eternal fire" 
that comes from a God, who is a "consuming fire" (Heb. 12:28) is 
also illustrated in Sodom (Jude 7) and perhaps also in the 
devouring of Nadab & Abihu (Lev. 10:2) and the prophets of Baal 
can also attest to its unquenchable nature and divine power (1 
Kings 18:38)

The punishing process that characterizes or produces this eternal 
punishment will not be pleasant...Jesus said, "there shall be 
weeping and gnashing of teeth"( Mt. 8:12).  There shall be "wrath 
and indignation" from God and "tribulation and anguish" in the 
human heart (Rom. 2:8)  There is a "fierceness of fire" that the 
willful sinner has a certain expectation of (Heb. 10:28).  It 
will be a "sorer" punishment than that which was experienced by 
those who transgressed the law and died "without compassion" 
(Heb. 10:28-29).  The fire will not be quenched, but it will 
completely consume its object and complete the divine purpose for 
which "eternal fire" is reserved. 

I agree with James about 2 Pet 3 being for all practical purposes 
literal...we are very close on that side of eschatology.  2 Peter 
3 helps us understand Rev. 21 as well, which may be figurative.  
So also, The literal things characteristic of "Gehenna" can help 
us understand the figurative aspects of Hell.  But Gehenna never 
inhered or contained the idea of conscious torment of living 
souls. Never.  To interpret it that way now is to greatly err in 
the understanding of both the literal and figurative aspects that 
could be there.  To go from the simple to the complex or from the 
literal to the figurative is sensible exegesis in both sides of 
eschatology.

This second affirmative has not dealt with what I called "other 
considerations" (Justice, etc.,) but as that is not proof of 
anything, but just some things for contemplation, it is fine to 
let those considerations remain in the background.

Robert Dozier