Dozier/Johnson Debate on Eternal Punishment

 
 
 Proposition: 
 The scriptures teach that the punishment of lost man is a final, 
irrevocable punishment that culminates in annihilation, rather 
than never ending conscious torment.

Affirm:  Robert Dozier
Deny:  James Johnson

Introduction

The subject of eternal punishment is a complex issue as it is 
connected with other issues such as the nature of man, the 
intermediate state, etc. It is a very important subject as well 
as it relates to the nature and character of God.  I would not 
attempt to cover all of that in this discussion and want to focus 
on what "eternal punishment" is.  I will, however, address some 
of the most relevant things, though not directly related to the 
meaning of the words "eternal punishment", in the discussion 
briefly.

I believed the traditional view on Hell and Eternal Punishment 
until a few years ago.  My mind was changed by scriptural 
evidence, not emotional impulse. I hope that all who read this 
discussion will let the scriptures guide them.

Body of Discussion 

Let me first discuss the word "eternal".

The first thing we need to know about the word "eternal" is that 
it is not primarily a word about time.  It is a word denoting 
things that have a nature that is above or beyond time. That 
which is "eternal" is that which transcends time.  It frequently 
has to do with the divine realm, where God, who alone is eternal, 
dwells.    As humans, we are really unable to relate to things 
without time.  God, on the other hand, may not really relate to 
time at all, thus we read, "one day is with the Lord as a 
thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Pet. 3:8).  I 
enter this discussion with the understanding that one of my 
biggest challenges in this discussion will be to try to address 
this subject, when we all, from a human perspective, have some 
built in difficulty with it as we are so time oriented.   

That the word "eternal" does not relate primarily to time and 
therefore when something is said to be "eternal", the primary 
meaning is not that it is a thing or process that continues 
without end, is seen in these examples of "eternal" as used in 
the scriptures.  Remember, the scriptures, not other sources, are 
the best and most definitive way to define the biblical meaning 
of words, phrases, etc. 

Consider the passages listed below illustrating the same word 
rendered "eternal" elsewhere seen in the texts below as 
"forever".

Ex. 12:24 "and ye shall observe this thing (passover -rd) as an 
ordinance to thee and they sons forever"    Ex. 40:15”an 
everlasting priesthood" (Aaronic)

Josh 14:9”the land (Canaan -rd) whereon thy foot hath trodden 
shall be an inheritance to thee and thy sons forever" 

1 Kings 8:13   "I have surely built thee a house of habitation, a 
place for thee to dwell in forever" (Temple)    Deut. 15:17”he 
shall be thy servant forever" (slave)

2 Kings 5:27  "The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto 
thee, and unto thy seed forever" 

These things were "forever" or "eternal", but not in that which 
relates to time, but in the sense that they were characterized by 
a nature that transcended time...they were unchangeable, 
irrevocable, irreversible things that were as certain as God 
himself. They were divinely appointed. Men could not stop, 
change, or thwart these things.  As we humans look at these 
things, we would try to relate them to time, as we do everything 
else we deal with, and as  they were permanent for a nation or 
person specific, and a time element can therefore be related to 
them, I trust that it is evident that unending duration from a 
standpoint of time is not the basic idea of the word and that the 
word does not inhere such. The texts noted do not speak of things 
that never began or  ended from a standpoint of time (they all 
began and ended) but the same word rendered "eternal" is used to 
describe them.  They were, however, eternal, in the sense that 
they were of divine origin or divinely imposed.  All things from 
God are as unchangeable, certain, sure, and permanent, as God 
Himself, even when they are of limited duration.  When God says 
something is "eternal", He is not telling us that it is will last 
for a indefinite period of time as much as He is telling us that 
it is above or beyond the measurement or influences of men. 

Things eternal and the divine realm are thus also often 
synonymous. Again, the "eternal" things of scriptures are not 
primarily things that never end from a time point, but are 
unchangeable, immutable, irrevocable things. Human efforts can be 
thwarted, but not the divine. Temporal things can and do change, 
but divine effort and eternal things are not subject to anything 
but God.

"I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever: nothing 
can be put to it, nor anything taken from it: and God doeth it, 
that men should fear before Him"."  (Eccl.3:14 )  The use of the 
word here shows that it is often related to the  divine nature or 
the spiritual realm, where time never has and never will exist.  
God is Eternal.  God, when described as  "eternal", is not being 
designated as one possessing seniority, but described as one 
possessing the divine nature.

It is apparent that this qualitative aspect is preeminent many 
times in the use of "eternal".  In fact, a careful look at its 
usage reveals that things "eternal" (esp. when describing a 
process) are  not always ongoing events or never ending actions, 
but actions that have permanent, irrevocable results. 

Consider these examples of usage and illustrations of the meaning 
of "eternal". When describing the Pharisees rejection of Jesus' 
miracles, Jesus called it an "eternal sin" (Mk. 3:30). Jesus is 
not describing a sin that never stops being committed, but a sin 
that "hath never forgiveness"...The text itself gives us the 
answer as to what "eternal" means as it relates to sin as well as 
it being an obvious truth that the sin was committed then and was 
a done deed, not an ongoing action without end from a time 
standpoint. It is "eternal" in its nature or quality. It revealed 
a condition of heart that was beyond repentance and thus the sin, 
already committed, "hath never forgiveness".  It is not "eternal 
sinning" but an "eternal sin".

"Eternal" when describing "eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:2) is not 
describing a process that has no beginning and no end. The 'day' 
of Judgment will come and go.  But its judgments will be divine, 
thus irrevocable, irreversible, unchangeable and permanent. There 
is only one Judgment.  No second chances.  It is an "eternal 
judgment" not "eternal judging".

"Eternal" when describing "eternal redemption" (Heb. 9:12) is not 
saying that redemption is a never ending process, which if true, 
would be a good argument for transubstantiation, but a "once for 
all" accomplishment of God and Christ.  Again, the very text 
itself defines the meaning of "eternal" . It is not "eternal 
redeeming" but "eternal redemption".

"Eternal", when describing "eternal salvation" (Heb. 5:9) is 
likewise not a never ending process, but a divine, irreversible, 
irrevocable act of Deity.  I hate to be so repetitious, but 
again, this is "eternal salvation" not "eternal saving".

"Eternal", when describing "eternal life" is likewise not just 
ongoing existence, but a permanent life of glorious quality.   It 
is the nature of "life" that makes this never end from a time 
perspective, not the use of the word "eternal".  The word 
"eternal" is used to describe the nature and quality of this 
life.  It is 'abundant" life (John 10:10) The word 'eternal" 
tells us that this life is something from God, something above 
and beyond the life we have from our earthly parents.  This 
"life" will not end because "life" is as "life" does, it 
continues.

"Eternal", when describing "eternal destruction" (2 Thess. 1:8) 
is not describing the duration of the destructive process  but 
the permanence of it.  Again, "eternal destruction" not "eternal 
destroying".

And last, but not least by any means, is Jude 7.  The "eternal 
fire" that destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah is set forth by God as an 
"example" of those who have and will experience divine judgment. 
Sodom & Gomorrah show us what it will mean to experience "the 
punishment of eternal fire".  It is rather obvious that the fire 
that destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah has burned itself out, but not 
before consuming Sodom & Gomorrah.   Compare 2 Peter 2:6.  This 
"eternal fire" is a fire from above, from God, who is described 
as a "consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29). This "eternal fire" cannot be 
quenched by man. It will finish its destructive work until its 
object is consumed.

The divine judgment upon Sodom & Gomorrah is the basis for so 
much of the language God uses to describe the judgment of nations 
and men.  It is the prototype for divine judgments. Cf. Gen. 
19:24-27; Isa. 34:9-10; 66:24; Ker. 17:27; Ezek. 20:45-49; Rev. 
14:10-11; 18:9,18-19;19:3; 20:10,14

"Eternal" when describing "eternal punishment" is not describing 
a punishing process that never ends but a punishment that is 
final, irrevocable, irreversible. A punishment from God, who can 
destroy both body and soul in Hell, not a punishment from men, 
whom can only destroy the body (Mt. 10:28)

Eternal destruction, punishment, fire all point to the same 
thing; the lake of fire, the second death. From this divine 
judgment there is no recovery.

This suffices to show that the word "eternal" in and of itself 
does not teach that the processes so described as "eternal" in 
the scriptures, whether sin, redemption, salvation, judgment, 
destruction, or punishment, are never ending processes, but 
rather permanent ones.  They are divine in nature...Again, "I 
know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever: nothing can 
be put to it, nor anything taken from it: and God doeth it that 
men should fear before Him" (Eccl. 3:14)

Second, let's address the idea of "punishment"


The word "punishment" does not tell us anything about the 
duration of the punishment. Consider the different classes or 
kinds of punishment that we know of.  

"Corporal" punishment (spanking children) is typically a 
punishment that has a short duration as far as time and length of 
process goes and a varying time aspect as far as how long it will 
be before it will need to be repeated. It is not "eternal" in 
time or effect...it is a human punishment, not a divine one, thus 
imperfect and needing repetition. Mistakes can be made by those 
inflicting this punishment. 

"Capital" punishment is similar as it is a punishment of 
relatively short duration.  It is obviously more effective as far 
as eliminating the possibility of the bad behavior that brought 
this punishment about being repeated!  However, it is not a 
permanent or irreversible punishment. All executed criminals will 
be resurrected. Some of these will obtain eternal life. Capital 
punishment is a human punishment.  It has its human element as 
well as corporal punishment.  Mistakes can be made.  

Then, what is this "eternal punishment" or divine punishment that 
is coming?  It will be the wrath of God against impenitent 
sinners (Rom. 1:18).  It will be a divine judgment characterized 
by "indignation and wrath" and "tribulation and anguish" (Rom. 
2:7).  God will 'destroy" both body and soul in this punishment. 
It will result in the lost being a people that "perish" (John 
3:16)... It is described in the scriptures in non figurative 
contexts over and over as "death", "destruction", etc.  The 
simple, literal texts should guide us in our effort to understand 
the figurative language, not the opposite (the words or phrases 
in figurative contexts being interpreted literally and thus 
forcing a figurative interpretation on the words and phrases in 
the obviously more simple and literal contexts).

Third, regarding the term "Hell" or Gehenna.  This was a highly 
dreadful word and idea to the Jewish mind. Gehenna or the Valley 
of Hinnom, was a garbage dump in the time of Christ. Trash, dead 
animals, the bodies of killed enemy warriors, unclaimed bodies of 
executed criminals, etc., were "dumped" there.  There  was 
nothing worse to the Jews than the idea of having no burial 
(Eccl. 6:3). Not having any honor shown to you at death was 
pretty much an indicator that your life was a disaster. But 
Gehenna as a trash dump was a filthy place.  There was a fire 
kept burning at all times to consume the trash and attempt to 
destroy the filth and stench it produced.  Sulfur might have been 
added to increase the heat. No doubt this was a maggot’s 
paradise.  But Gehenna was all about destroying that which was 
dumped there.  There were not cries of never ending conscious 
pain coming out of the bodies cast there.  No conscious torment, 
just destruction of trash, carcasses of animals, and some dead 
human bodies. It was all about death and destruction.  That is 
what those who heard Jesus  speak of Gehenna would think of.  
Jesus spoke of the wicked and lost as being cast into Gehenna 
AFTER God killed them (Luke 12:5) Gehenna is the place where God 
destroys both body and soul (Mt. 10:28)

Fourth, some peripheral considerations can be mentioned.  
Supporting evidence, perhaps.  

One of these is the consideration of Justice.  God is Just. Since 
God is the one who will impose "eternal punishment", His nature 
and character must be considered. His judgments have never been 
without purpose or end. If the scriptures teach that "eternal 
punishment" is a never ending process of punishing, then so be 
it.  I believed that for many years and only changed my mind 
because I saw evidence that convinced me that the Bible did not 
teach it. But this traditional view does not reflect favorably on 
God. This doctrine is called, "the scandal of the cross" by some 
and is a major stumbling block for many unbelievers. It portrays 
God's justice as immeasurably more horrible than Saddam & Sons 
cruel torture could ever be. Such is cause for reflection and 
examination of this doctrine. Many have said that this doctrine 
is blasphemy, speaking evil of God.

It makes the "Good News" the absolute worst new ever revealed.  
How tragic, that the "good news" includes the most terrifying 
revelation ever given to man.  Nothing compares or could compare 
to the "bad" nature of this news, purportedly revealed in the 
"gospel".

It makes God more of a "Godfather" than one whom we can approach 
with "Abba, Father".  Obey God or burn forever.  Sounds like He 
has "made us an offer we cannot refuse".  Free will? The terror 
this teaching instills hardly allows one to truly have free will. 
Under such a threat, can it be said that man is obeying God 
because he loves God and wants to glorify God or only because he 
really has no choice.

Conclusion

Thus, my affirmative for the proposition consists of (1)the 
definition of "eternal"  (2) What "punishment" is and how 
"eternal punishment" should be understood. (3) What "Hell" 
(Gehenna) signifies. (4)Other considerations; Justice, The Nature 
of The Gospel (Good News), Man's free will.

Robert Dozier