Robert Waters' Second Rebuttal
Proposition:
When Jesus stated that when one "puts away" his spouse, except
it be for fornication, and marries another he commits adultery
(Mt:19:9), he was talking about cases where a legal divorce had
taken place, which is the same as "put away".
Affirm: Brian Galloway
Deny: Robert Waters
Webmaster’s note: Links given herein will open in a separate browser window.
Greetings to my opponent and to interested readers:
We are discussing the meaning of “put away”.
I am delighted to stand for the truth in denying the above
proposition. Rather than merely seek to prove his position, my
opponent again has stated that I am desperate to prove my
position on MDR and that I just made up the idea that “put away”
does not mean divorce (More on this later). First, I have been
determined to learn the truth on this issue and to help others
see it. Since neither myself nor anyone on either side of my
family, or my wife’s family, has been divorced the assigning of
motive by my opponent is not only unbrotherly but also
judgmental, unjust and inaccurate.
In his first affirmative, my opponent mostly remained in the
negative – trying once again to defeat the truth I presented in
my three affirmative installments. It is interesting that in his
FIRST affirmative he promised to provide proof to support his
position in his third and final affirmative. I made note of the
plan and stated that I suspected that the reason was so that he
would not have to respond to my comments regarding his “proof”.
But we see now that he has gone ahead and provided some quotes
from sources, which is evidently the “proof” he first thought of
withholding until later.
In this installment, the reader will see: that according to my
opponent’s own remarks, his “proof” is unreliable; that he has
ignored or slighted valid arguments I have made; that he is
inconsistent; and that his basic objection to my position is that
it is contrary to what he has learned.
My opponent actually presented some passages this time, but they
are all passages that I have already shown to be supportive of
the proposition I affirmed.
When Brian wrote:
The sending away is part of the divorce…
he gave up any hopes of proving his position, because his
affirming his proposition is contingent on him proving that
“sending away” is the divorce.
Throughout this discussion, Brian has maintained that APOLUO does
not mean “separate”. I have not contended that “put away” and
“separate” is exactly the same, but his effort to teach the
reader that it does not amount to separation is met with a very
real problem. You see, he claims that APOLUO means divorce.
Here is his problem: the word from which divorce is translated is
APOSTASION, and a definition given for it is, “something
separative”. Putting away results in separation, and providing a
“bill of divorce” results in separation, but for some reason we
must not accept that “put away” amounts to separation, yet it is,
according to Brian, divorce. Thus, it is clear that my opponent
holds a very convoluted position.
Now to my opponent’s comments:
Waters seems to be confused now about what he believes Apoluo
means. He states "I have not said Apoluo "always means to be
separated." Then he said, "What I have tried to communicate is
the idea that when one merely "puts away" his spouse, the action
amounts to "separation", and it obviously does." Well, which is
it, Robert? Does it mean separation or not?
rw Clearly when one is merely put away (or sent away) without
divorce papers, they are separated. Obviously, “put away” and
divorce are not exactly the same, as I have explained in a
previous installment. One would make no sense if he said to his
wife, “I’m going to separate you”, however, if he did send her
away the result would be a separation. Now what is difficult
about that? It is as simple as 2+2=4.
“Then Robert attempts to misconstrue something I said. He states
that I said, "The sending away is part of the divorce, not two
separate things." Then he believes that ended the debate. I
guess he wishes that, for then he could go home thinking he
proved apoluo means a separation, when he has never shown why it
does not mean a divorce. What I stated above is that a part of
getting a divorce is that people cease being a couple. They no
longer practice the partnership that marriage involves. Of
course two people separate when they divorce. That is part of
divorcing. But Robert is claiming that apoluo is a separation
apart from or separate from a divorce. Unfortunately, that is
not in the word in the context used in Matthew 19.
rw Robert didn’t misconstrue what Brian said. He made a
statement that caused his ship to begin to sink, and he then
tries to plug the hole. But it is too late – the ship is already
sunken.
Let us take a close look as what he said. He said, "The sending
away is part of the divorce, not two separate things." First,
Brian evidently recognizes that “sending away” is equivalent to
“put away” from the gk word apoluo. Second, he clearly admits
that there are TWO parts to a divorce. He states, “Of course
two people separate when they divorce. That is part of
divorcing.” What he fails to acknowledge is the simple fact that
ONE without the OTHER is not a scriptural divorce. You see, I
gave the illustration of people separating without divorcing and
divorcing without separating, but Brian does not want to go
there. Nevertheless, without dealing with the arguments that
expose his position he continues to assert that “put away”, i.e.,
send away, means both “put away” AND divorce. But the only
“proof” he has is based upon circular reasoning – the traditional
belief that is based upon a misunderstanding and misapplication
of Jesus’ teaching.
Robert seems to have difficulties realizing that several actions
occur when one divorces, all of which are part of the divorce.
For example, someone tells me, 1) my wife and I decided to end
our marriage, and 2) we filed divorce papers. Have they simply
separated? No. They have divorced. There were two things done,
and it could be broadened out to a number of things that must be
done. Basically, two people decided to end a marriage and make
that decision legal. This is a far cry from Robert saying Apoluo
simply means a separation, but not a divorce.
rw Come on Brian, face reality! I am the one that started
emphasizing the “parts” involved in divorce. Can you not see
your inconsistency? Are there “parts” to a divorce or is it just
the “putting away”? You can’t have it both ways.
In your example above, when they filed the papers they may or may
not have been separated. They could have completed the divorce
but not separated – continued to live together, which would not
have been a scriptural divorce according to Deut 24:1-4.
In my previous response, I wrote: “At any rate, Apoluo (put away)
is the first “PART” and Apostasion (divorce) is the other “PART”.
You can do one or the other, and some do (for various reasons as
pointed out in my affirmative), but without doing BOTH there is
no scriptural divorce (Mt 19:7).”
How did Brian deal with the above? He continued to ignore the
facts and observations I made that relate to this discussion.
Robert keeps going back to the ASV and uses circular reasoning,
attempting to state that because the ASV means put away, it is
not referring to a divorce. As I will show in just a moment, put
away is synonymous with divorce. So the ASV is correct and Robert
has proven nothing.
rw I ask the reader to read what I said and consider Brian’s
accusation that I’m using circular reasoning: “Put away” and
“divorce” are obviously two different things. The most respected
authority, the ASV, translated apoluo as “put away”, and “put
away,” in English, is NOT equal to divorce. Following a divorce
proceeding, it is expected that a separation will take place, but
“putting away” ONLY amounts to nothing but a separation. Thus,
divorce papers + separation = scriptural and legal divorce (Deut
24:1; Mt19:7).
I have shown from various sources that in English “put away” does
not mean divorce. My opponent agrees with me that the ASV is
correct. Now all he needs to do is make the proper application
and make his teaching conform to that truth, rather than try to
make it say “divorce”. Brian really likes to make the “circular
reasoning” assertion, so much so that it makes one wonder if he
is not desperate for something to say. There is no circular
reasoning in my argument. The ASV is correct, the versions that
render apoluo as divorce are wrong, and there is no possible way
for Brian to show that what he has admitted to be only “part” of
divorce is the same as the divorce itself.
Robert states Jesus is not discussing the putting away of a
spouse in Matthew 19:9, but instead is referring to "a case where
the marriage itself is unlawful and is therefore unscriptural."
This is a good example of how Robert handles texts. You, the
reader, look in Matthew 19 and see where there is any indication
Jesus is speaking of an unlawful marriage. Let's look again at
the context from the ASV, since Robert approves of this
translation. In the context, Jesus states that what God has
joined together, let not man put asunder. What does God join
together? People in marriage. That is the only thing under
consideration. In verse 7, they reply asking about the divorce
they say Moses commanded. Still talking about what God joined
together. In verse 8, Jesus states it was because their hardness
of heart that Moses suffered (not commanded) the putting away
(still referring to what God joined together). And then we have
verse 9. Robert, what else could Jesus be talking about. You
would have him playing Ping-Pong with this topic, but he is not.
There is not only NO indication verse 9 speaks of an unlawful
marriage, but every indication he speaks of a lawful marriage.
rw If tradition is your authority and you cannot consider
anything else, then to you there is “every indication He speaks
of a lawful marriage”. However, to those who are determined to
learn and obey the truth is it not hard to see that Jesus’
teachings were in accord with the Law under which he lived and
obeyed, which allowed divorce. That Brian refuses to see is
clear from the fact that he refuses to accept what Jesus clearly
said. My opponent keeps using “put away” in place of divorce,
which only serves to promote confusion – it will not change the
true meaning.
Then I find it amazing that Robert glorifies the New American
Bible (whatever that is), because it translates poineia as
"unlawful marriage", but the same verse translates apoluo as
DIVORCE.
rw I merely pointed out that the NAB properly translated porneia
as “unlawful marriage”, which is what I believe to be the correct
translation. I also pointed out in the same paragraph that they
missed it in their translation of apoluo. The reader will find
no comment from me that indicate I was glorifying the NAB, as
Brian falsely asserts.
Now, we might ask, what does poineia mean? Robert again shows
his habit of redefining words to fit what he wants. Thayer
translates Poineia as "illicit sexual intercourse in general."
This would be as compared to a specific type of poineia
(fornication) such as adultery which is illicit sexual
intercourse in which one who is married is defiled. So, the
translators of the New American Bible have done what the New
American Standard Bible has done, they have watered down what
fornication is all about.
rw First, let us fully understand what we are talking about here.
We are talking about the exception clause, “except it be for
porneia”, i.e., “except where the marriage is “unlawful”. Jesus’
teaching is very clear, it makes sense and it does not require
doing things, or requiring things, that are contrary to other
clear teachings. In Mat 19:9, Jesus was saying, If you send away
your wife and marry another you commit adultery, unless the
marriage (with the woman you sent away) was unlawful. This
concept is in perfect harmony with the command of God and the
subsequent practice of the priests who “separated” themselves
from the foreign wives. Note the passage below:
Ezr 10:11 – “Now therefore make confession unto the LORD God of
your fathers, and do his pleasure: and separate yourselves from
the people of the land, and from the strange wives.”
Note Strong’s Definition for the word “separate”: [Heb. 914]
badal (baw-dal')
a primitive root; to divide (in variation senses literally or
figuratively, separate, distinguish, differ, select, etc.):--
(make, put) difference, divide (asunder), (make) separate (self,
-ation), sever (out), X utterly.
[Heb. 915] badal (baw-dawl')
from 914; a part:--piece.
My opponent’s plan to get around the fact that that all that was
required of the priests (regarding their illicit “wives”) was
separation is to convince himself that separation and divorce is
the same thing. Separation and divorce obviously are different
words with different meanings. My opponent would have you
believe that the priests divorced their wives because in verse 19
they talked about “putting away”. Well, we have seen that the
priests were commanded to separate from their illicit wives and
that “put away” was stated as what they intended to do.
Therefore, “separate” and “put away” amount to the same thing and
it is not “divorce”, which has a different definition. [Ezr
10:19 And they gave their hands that they would put away their
wives; and being guilty, they offered a ram of the flock for
their trespass.]
Robert states that Jesus is not teaching polygamy. But if apoluo
means a mere separation and not a divorce, then Jesus would have
to be teaching that, for if my wife commits fornication, I merely
have to separate from her, marry someone else (and now be married
to two women), based on Robert's definition of apoluo.
rw First, you do not HAVE to do anything if your wife commits
fornication. Second, you not only have no argument here you show
that you either are incapable of understanding or do understand
but are continuing to endeavor to create confusion. Your
argument is only valid if your proposition is true (which is that
“circular reasoning” you keep charging me with). Can you not
even for the sake of argument see another’s position? I
explained the exception clause above. For one to be able to
marry another he must do more than “put away” – there must
actually be a divorce, which my opponent has admitted to be
composed of TWO parts and it has been devastating to his effort
to prove his proposition.
Robert then states that Jesus is not allowing women to be married
to more than one husband at a time. But if his definition of
apoluo (separation) is correct), then Mark 10:12 teaches just
that.
rw My opponent has no argument here.
Robert states that adultery was not the only valid reason for
divorce. Under the Old Law, he is correct. That is what
Deuteronomy 24:1-4 is all about, and is what Jesus is changing in
this passage.
rw If my opponent would quote me rather than make assertions as
to what I supposedly said or meant, it would be helpful.
Adultery was not a valid reason for a legal divorce in the O.T.
and it is not a reason for it in the N.T. There was a law for
dealing with those who would commit adultery with another man’s
wife (Lev 10:20). Therefore, Deuteronomy is not about divorcing
because of adultery and consequently the conversation Jesus had
with the Pharisees was not about divorcing for adultery. It was
about “putting away” and marrying another without divorcing,
which resulted in adultery. The men were committing adultery
against “her” (Mark 10:11).
Robert asks if permanent separation would be wrong. Robert,
based on 1 Cor. 7, one would be doing wrong because they can't
fulfill their responsibilities of marriage, unless the
nonChristian spouse leaves the Christian spouse, in which case
she can do nothing about it. Not, this has nothing to do with
this debate, but you seemed to want an answer.
rw My opponent has been trying to dodge the idea, or rather FACT,
that there is such a thing as putting away (sending away) without
there being a legal divorce, but we are making some progress. He
has now admitted that it is wrong to do a permanent separation
and states that the reason is “responsibility” (1 Cor 7). If
Brian’s wife gets tired of him and sends him out of the house
(apoluos him), in a situation that is a permanent separation, she
sins in so doing. If she marries another without completing the
divorce by providing legal papers, she does that which the Lord
taught against in Matt 19:9. Thank you, Brian for finally
answering the question. Now that you have answered the question,
every reader has to see that there is at least the possibility
that Jesus was discussing men who were simply “putting away”
there wives (which is what the text says) and marrying another
without providing them with the “bill of divorcement”. Since the
“bill of divorcement” is obviously a requirement before the
divorce can be considered valid or complete, the mere fact of one
having simply put away his spouse cannot be considered anything
more than a separation – like the one my opponent has finally
admitted is sinful.
Then Robert makes an argument comparing the official performing
the ceremony to God who joins together. Robert, the official
does not join two people together. God does. Yes, I do believe
God is the only one who can unjoin. Men cannot make God do what
he will not. But that begs the question, for separation is not
unjoining to begin with. Separation is not what apoluo is
referring to in Matthew 19:1-9. And interestingly, Robert states
that he agrees that separation is not unjoining, divorce is.
rw First, the following is the argument I made to which Brian is
responding: “If only God (who “joins” a couple) can “unjoin” on
the grounds that he did the joining, then by the same reasoning
the official who joined them by performing the ceremony would
have to do the unjoining. Of course, there is no biblical or
legal support for either.”
Of course, separation is not “unjoining”. Nevertheless, my
opponent is inconsistent here. He wants to hold to the truth
that “separation” is not divorce but continue to assert that when
one “puts away” his spouse (which obviously results in
separation) he has actually divorced the spouse. In other words,
Brian knows the truth but continues to assert that while apoluo
is properly translated “put away” it does not mean what it says,
but means “divorce”. You cannot have it both ways, Brian.
So, are those preachers who say, “I tied the knot” just lying
about it? According to Brian the preacher was just there - he
had nothing to do with the legal aspect of the marriage, but God
witnessed and gave his consent, to the marriage, but somehow the
marriage cannot be dissolved unless God says it is ok. We have a
problem here because the passage where my opponent would have you
to believe that God says a marriage is NOT ok because a divorced
person cannot marry, is not even talking about divorce – it is
talking about adultery being committed by marrying another after
simply separating. Brian believes something that the Bible does
not say and he would have you to believe it as well. There is no
biblical evidence that only God can unjoin. It is purely
assumption.
In my previous response I wrote:
Robert asks, "Is it wrong to separate permanently from your
wife?" My answer: If my wife leaves me and I have nothing to do
with it, then my being separated would not be wrong, (but it
would be for her). But any other type of voluntary separation
would not allow me to fulfill my responsibilities as a husband,
and thus would be wrong.
rw I’m delighted that my opponent is giving some straight
answers. Previously I asked: “Brian, do you not know that
CHORIZO is the word for separate, or one of them? It is the word
found in 1 Cor 7:11. Have you not been guilty of teaching that
CHORIZO means divorce and that this passage refers to divorce?”
Brian responds:
Then Robert claims that in 1 Cor. 7:11, the word chorizo merely
means separate. Robert, I agree. There is no reason for
divorce, and divorce never occurs here. I'm not sure what this
has to do with our discussion, which is probably why I did not
respond earlier.
rw Here is what it has to do with our discussion: When brethren
have tried to show that Jesus did not forbid marriage (as seen to
be evil in 1 Tim 4:1-3) for one that had been divorced and that
that theory contradicted Paul’s clear teaching, invariably
opponents would bring up 1 Cor 7:11 and assert that this is an
example of Paul forbidding one who had been divorced to marry.
Well, as in the situation Jesus was discussing, there had not
even been a divorce. The separated couple was to remain as
unmarried or in the state they were in; i.e., they were not to
divorce or marry another. No other interpretation allows the
apostles’ words to be consistent or harmonious. I am delighted that my opponent apparently agrees with me on the meaning of
chorizo. It may help others to see the truth if they can see the
true meaning of certain passages that have been errantly used to
support their position.
Then Robert states "Brian is trying to hang on to the idea that
Moses merely allowed divorce. It was the 'putting away' that was
'suffered' but the divorce was commanded." Robert, you need to
read the texts more closely. In Deuteronomy 24, if a man chooses
not to remain married to his wife, he may divorce her. Nothing
about a separation and no commandment. The Pharisees, not Jesus,
said Moses commanded. When Jesus replied he only replied that
Moses suffered. (See Matthew 19:7-8, ASV).”
rw My opponent is the one that needs to read the text more
closely. First, it is not even debatable as to whether the
giving of the “bill of divorce” was a command. The text (ASV)
says it is a command and Jesus said it was a command. I provided
the quote but Brian ignored it. Here it is again: (Mark 10:3) –
“And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?”
Now, with it definitely established that the divorce was a
command you have to wonder WHY God commanded it. He did so
because women were being “put away” (sent out of the house) and
not being legally and scripturally released so as to marry
another.
Then Robert gets back on the tired argument that Jesus could not
be disagreeing with them for they did not react. Look in Matthew
23. Jesus disagrees with them on a number of things and they did
not object strongly. Perhaps they had no grounds to object on.
rw I agree with the above, there were no grounds to object to
what Jesus really said. The Pharisees knew of what they were
guilty. My point was that IF what Brian asserts that Jesus said
were true they WOULD HAVE objected. The reason they did not
object was that Jesus did not say what Brian says He said. In
other words, the Pharisees did not understand Jesus to have said
what Brian contends He said.
Robert states that Moses suffered polygamy. Robert, that is not
what Moses suffered. Polygamy had been going on at least back as
far as Abraham. Moses suffered divorce. That's what Jesus said
in Matthew 19:8.
rw Moses suffered the “putting away”; i.e., he did not impose a
penalty for it. The result of putting away a legitimate wife and
marrying another was polygamy (which can be adultery) regardless
of how many women a man considered his wife. I agree that
polygamy was practiced as far back as Abraham, but I find no
authorization for it in the scriptures. It was just “suffered”.
What did God hate in Mal. 2:16? Not adultery (although God hates
adultery). He hated putting away or divorce. And he still hates
divorce.
rw I’m sure God hates divorce where one spouse, by divorcing the
other, is acting treacherously, but what God said he hates is
“putting away” – the practice that left women without a home,
without means of support and without right to marry another. (It
was not that she could not marry another because she was not
divorced for “adultery” it was because she was not divorced at
all.) Asserting that “put away” means divorce does not prove
anything, Brian. Where is your proof? I’m willing to believe
what the best translators (ASV, YLT etc.) tells me it says, and
so is Brian, but he ADDS that it means divorce. Of course, he
needs it to mean divorce so he can show justification for his
practice of breaking up marriages and imposing celibacy.
Interestingly, Robert could find no scripture allowing women to
have more than one husband. But his definition of apoluo states
they can.
rw My definition of apoluo is “put away”, or send away, which
amounts to or results in a separation, as I have proven. Brian,
you will have to explain how my definition states that women can
have more than one husband.
Brian wrote:
I am affirming that in Matthew 19:9, apoluo refers to a divorce.
I have shown in the context that this must be what Jesus is
referring to. In this affirmation, I am going to do two things:
first look at the word "apoluo" from reputable and proven
sources, and look at how the word is used in the Bible.
rw First, my opponent did not show from the context that Jesus
was referring to divorce. I truly believe that over 90% of the
people who are reading or will read this debate understand that
Jesus did not flatly contradict the teaching of the Old
Testament. My exegesis of the text differs markedly from Brian’s
definition. The big difference is that his requires that Jesus
transgressed the law by teaching contrary to it while he lived,
whereas my exegesis allows that Jesus remained true to the Law
under which he lived.
Brian says he is going to look at the word “apoluo” from
reputable and proven sources”. Now I wonder how he arrived at
the conclusion that his sources are proven to be accurate on the
matter in question. I remind my opponent, and the reader, that
when I quoted from various versions that were consistent in
translating apoluo as “put away”, he Brian objected that
most…were works of one man. Brian stated, “It is interesting
what versions Robert has pulled out. With the exception of the
ASV, these are obscure and for the most part one man versions.”
Of course, I emphasized that the rendering of a word or passage
by the ASV is the strongest evidence that one can have, and it
supports my position that apoluo means “put away”, rather than
divorce. Did Brian refute the above statement? No, and he
cannot because everyone knows the scholars of the ASV were true
to the text and they agreed that apoluo means, “put away”. Brian
did consent that “put away” was correctly translated – he had to
so do. However, he then asserted that it means “divorce”.
Nevertheless, I quoted from three English dictionaries regarding
the meaning of “put away” and they did not mention divorce. Of
course, we who know the English language know that “put away”
does not mean divorce and we do not use that term when referring
to divorce, with the exception of those who have been deceived,
or are attempting to deceive you, into believing that “apoluo”
means divorce. My opponent would now have you believe that
apoluo means divorce because a work done by ONE MAN includes it
in his definition. (Actually, at the end he says it is “used of
divorce” by the Romans.) He says that is “proof”. What it
proves to me is that the ONE MAN was simply another who failed to
learn and teach the truth regarding who has a right to marry
under the Christian dispensation. The fact that one has
exceptional knowledge of the original language does not guarantee
he is going to draw proper conclusions on all doctrinal matters.
Many use Strong's Greek dictionary of the New Testament, found in
their exhaustive concordance, probably because of its ease of
use. For Apoluo, the following definition is given: ‘to free
fully, relieve, release, dismiss, let die, pardon, or divorce.’
Each of those definitions is not referring to a mere separation,
but the releasing of a covenant. A divorce. Something that is
permanent. Separation is not permanent.
rw Separation might not be permanent, but in a previous
installment, I discussed a scenario where a man tells a woman,
“We are through….” The relationship ends, though there was no
legal divorce. Thus, apoluo is used to mean, dismiss, send away,
release etc. (See complete quote below.) My opponent seems to
think that a divorce is permanent but a separation cannot be
permanent. Well, that obviously is not true, because there are
couples that separate permanently and there are couples who
divorce and then later marry each other again.
[Grk. 630] apoluo (ap-ol-oo'-o)
from 575 and 3089; to free fully, i.e. (literally) relieve,
release, dismiss (reflexively, depart), or (figuratively) let
die, pardon or (specially) divorce:--(let) depart, dismiss,
divorce, forgive, let go, loose, put (send) away, release, set at
liberty.
According to Strong, “put away” means “send” away. The best
scholars, who produced the ASV of 1901, did not think apoluo
meant divorce in the texts under study, thus they translated it
as “put away”.
“Thayer points our that apoluo comes from two words: apo meaning
from and luo meaning to loose. So apoluo means to loose from.
In a relationship, when is something loosed? When they are
divorce. Separation looses nothing. Divorce looses or frees
from the marriage.
rw But Brian, you have admitted that apoluo is correctly
translated by the ASV as “put away”. You do not mention where
Thayer talks about apoluo meaning, “send away” etc. It does not
matter anyway, because you have discounted works of “one man” as
being any acceptable source of authority on the original
language.
Now, notice the definitions Thayer gives: to loose from, sever by
loosening, undo, to set free, to let go, to release a debtor.
All of these is far more serious than a separation. These end
something. But Thayer goes on, "used of divorce, to dismiss from
the house, to repudiate." Odd Robert, Thayer saw the dismissing
and the divorcing as being the same thing.
rw Near the end of his entire list of definitions Thayer said,
“Used of divorce.” Vines says the same but inserts that it was
among the Romans. Thayer says apoluo means, “dismiss from the
house, to repudiate”, and he is right…that is the way Jesus used
the word.
As noted in my response to Robert, but I will note again,
Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament is perhaps
the most comprehensive and weighty source accepted for its
credibility. This dictionary stated, "the woman is exalted to
the same dignity as her husband, and "is a life-long fellowship
of the partners. Only thus does it actualise the ideal intended
in creation (Matthew 5:32, Matthew 19:8). On this ground Jesus
rejects the provisions of the Law and the scribes concerning
divorce of the wife under the legal form of a bill of
divorcement. This is in conflict with the will of God (Matthew
19:6ff.) For this reason the remarriage of a man after divorcing
his wife, or the remarrying of a divorced woman, is tantamount to
adultery (Mt. 5:32; 19:9; Mark 10:11f; Luke 16:18)."
rw The above, written by “one man”, sounds very much like a
commentary of one that holds the view that was originally set
forth by Catholics: that marriage is a sacrament, that only God
can unbind, and that one who has been divorced must be forbidden
to marry. I suppose the fact that all this sounds like what was
forbidden by the apostle Paul (1 Tim 4:1-4) does not affect my
opponent’s thinking regarding the “credibility” of his “one man”
authority.
In fact, Kittel takes the word a step farther and shows the
origin of the word goes back to louw, apolouw and loutron. These
are words used for a cleansing or washing. In Acts 22:16, when
Paul was told to arise and be baptized and wash away his sins,
the word wash is from apoluo. Now are were merely separating
from our sins (in a way we can be reunited with them, which mere
separation leaves open to us? No. When Christ's blood cleanses,
I am divorce from my sins. I will never wear the guilt of those
sins again. I am freed from those sins.”
rw The above gives clear indication that my opponent does not
intend to admit what is involved in a divorce. Remember, he said
he would not even look it up because it has nothing to do with
our discussion! Apostasion is involved in an actual divorce.
It is the other “part” – A bill of divorce (papers). My opponent
does not want to go there.
Every proven and reliable source on the greek language mentions
divorce as what apoluo means.
rw Evidently my opponent’s idea of a reliable and proven source
is if it agrees with his theory and backs up his beliefs and
practices. All others become unproven and unreliable if they
disagree with him. Nevertheless, the ASV, YLT, Darby, KJV (with
one inconsistent exception) and others, remain “proven and
reliable” yet they do not agree with Brian. Apoluo is correctly
translated “put away” and “put away” does not mean divorce in
English. It is that simple.
I am following the context of God's word, and the way the best
lexicons and dictionaries define and explain the word. You are
the one arguing in the face of that evidence.”
rw We have already discussed the matter of authorities. Again,
Brian recognizes the ASV as being reliable and accurate. It
supports my position. Nevertheless, my opponent says we are to
believe what the “best lexicons and dictionaries” say, but he has
a problem. He has ridiculed the one-man versions that
consistently translate apoluo as “put away”, therefore his
insisting that “one man” dictionaries (particularly the ones he
deems to be the best) be accepted shows him to be inconsistent.
Let me suggest that in looking at the English term, 'put away', a
look in the Old Testament will find Robert has NO support to back
up his theory either. If you do a phrase search in the KJV Old
Testament, you will find the phrase, 'put away' some 36 times.
Only 5 of these times refer to wives. The other 31 times refer to
idols, or various types of sin. Now, one could ask the question,
is God telling Israel to simply separate themselves from sin and
idols (temporarily), or does he want them to put away sin and
idols in the sense of divorcing it, permanently? Anyone who
carefully reads God's word will conclude God wants us to divorce
permanently from idols and grievous sin. So, God is using 'put
away' and 'divorce' in an interchangeable way.
rw There is no indication that God used “put away” and divorce in
an interchangeable way. Brian’s problem is that he thinks
separation is only a temporary thing but divorce is permanent.
The word “divorce” denotes the idea of a legal desolation of a
marriage. What my opponent says above helps me in my
affirmation, not him.
Now, notice the five verses in which put away is used to refer to
a relationship.
Leviticus 21:7 They shall not take a wife that is a whore, or
profane; neither shall they take a woman put away from her
husband: for he is holy unto his God.
Ezra 10:3 Now therefore let us make a covenant with out God to
put away all the wives, and such as are born of them, according
to the counsel of my lord, and of those that tremble at the
commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law.
Ezra 10:19 And they gave their hands that they would put away
their wives; and being guilty, they offered a ram of the flock
for their trespass.
Ezekiel 44:22 Neither shall they take for their wives a widow,
nor her that is put away: but they shall take maidens of the seed
of the house of Israel, or a widow that had a priest before.
Jeremiah 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go
from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her
again? Shall not that land be greatly polluted? But thou hast
played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith
the Lord.
Now, let's look at these passages. First, compare Jeremiah 3:1
(above) to Deuteronomy 24:1-2.
When a man taketh a wife, and marrieth her, then it shall be, if
she find no favor in his eyes, because he hath found some
unseemly thing in her, that he shall write her a bill of
divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his
house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and
be another man's wife.
Verses 3 and 4 point out that if the second husband divorces her,
she cannot return to the first. Now, compare that to Jeremiah
3:1. Aren't these two verses saying and referring to exactly the
same thing? Yet two separates words are used. Jeremiah speaks of
putting away, and Moses of divorcing. They are talking about the
same thing because the expressions are two ways of saying the
same thing.
rw I used Jer 3:1 in my affirmative but my opponent did not
respond to the argument. Now he tries to turn it around and make
an affirmative argument of his own.
In the above-mentioned passage, the word “they” was doubtless a
reference to the Jews who had come to misunderstand and misuse
Deut 24-1-4. (This will become evident when you understand the
message of the text.) In Deut 24 the husband was forbidden to
take back a wife to whom he had actually given a “bill of
divorce” and who had married another. He was not forbidden to
take back a woman who he had “put away” or merely sent out of the
house, as we have seen from Isaiah 50:1 in my affirmative, though
it seems apparent from the text (Jer 3:1) that such had become
the thinking of the people. God said, Regardless of this
erroneous thinking I will take you back. He was saying, we have
been separated and you have played the harlot, nevertheless, I
will take you back. Again, I asked, “Was God asserting that he
would do something that was against the Law, and therefore would
mess up the paradigm he had given?” My opponent makes arguments
that are unscriptural and have unacceptable consequences.
Look at the other verses. Ezekiel 44:22 and Leviticus 21:7 are
speaking of priests who were held to a higher standard of purity
than were the rest of the people. They could not marry one who
was divorced or even one who was widowed, unless she was the
widow of a former priest. Only maidens (which suggests no sexual
relationship - virgins) could be married.
rw No, the versions most respected for accuracy or literal word
for word translation, do not say, “divorced”, they say, put away,
driven away or sent away. The prohibition was evidently for
assuring that the priests married persons that were pure and not
actually bound by marriage to another. My opponent contends that
Deut 24:1-4, which allowed divorce, was only applicable in the
case where the wife committed adultery. We have seen that there
was a Law for that – the death penalty. Therefore, if he is
correct on that major matter then there would have been no
divorced women for the priests to consider marrying, thus he has
misused the passage to try to support his position. Brian, which
argument do you want to give up? You cannot have them both.
And Ezra 10 speaks of both priests and non-priests who had
married foreign women. It was an unlawful marriage in God's eyes.
But they did not just separate from them, they ended the
marriage, putting them away, separating themselves from them by
divorcing them.
rw It is amazing that my opponent has attempted to use the above
passage to support his position. The word “yatsa” is virtually
unanimously translated “put away” or send away. Divorce is not
in the definition at all. Thus, my opponent has taken the
position that simply separating from someone with whom you are
committing porneia is divorce. That means, according to my
opponents reasoning, that if a couple shack-up and one becomes a
Christians and ends the relationship he is a “divorced” person
and cannot marry. Bottom line – my opponent asserts that the
priests divorced those illicit wives but he presented no evidence
to support it. He cannot and will not present evidence because
all the evidence is to the contrary, as I presented at length in
my affirmative.
And folks, that is it. Those are the only passages in the Old
Testament which speak of a woman being put away. Nowhere is there
any indication that this was a separate act from divorcing them.
Where has Robert come up with his theory? Out of his desperation
to prove what he wants the Bible to say, he made it up. Well,
Robert, what you think holds no weight with me. What the Bible
says holds every weight with me. And the Bible does not agree
with your theory. So your theory unfortunately is just a figment
of your imagination.
rw My opponent is at such a loss to find anything to support his
position that he has to charge me with making up the position for
which I stand. The charge in inexcusable because after he
previously made the same charge I replied by providing several
sources that teach what I believe and teach – sources who had
been teaching it long before I learned the truth. I have links,
quotes and I know of at least three books. Therefore, I do not
understand how my opponent thinks he can gain any ground by
making such a remark, again. The comment that I “made it up” is
unbrotherly to say the least. Persons who have the truth do not
need to resort to making such accusations.
My opponent sums up his evidence to support his proposition by
noting three things. He said:
1. The context of Matthew 19:1-9 shows apoluo to mean a divorce.
If it means a separation, when Jesus is promoting polygamy both
with a man and many wives, and a woman with many husbands.
rw The subject began with the matter of “put away” and ended with
“put away”. Only in the seventh verse was the matter of Divorce
mentioned. The polygamy argument went over like a lead balloon.
2. The word itself (apoluo) is defined, described, and translated
by those sources recognized as authorities with the greek
language as referring to a setting free, a loosing from, or a
divorce.
rw Apoluo was consistently translated by ASV, YLT, etc., as “put
away”. We all know that “put away” does not mean divorce in
English, except those who have determined that they need it to
mean divorce to justify their teaching and practice.
3. The way the phrase 'put away' is used in the Old Testament
refers to a divorce, not a mere separation.
rw No, Brian is wrong. I made the argument that Brian’s position
has God being redundant, but he made no reply.
Moses commanded: “…That he shall write her a bill of divorcement,
and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.” ASV
My opponent has Moses saying, let him divorce her and let him
divorce her. Nevertheless, clearly (as has been admitted) there
are two parts to a divorce and “put away”, or send out of the
house, is not THE divorce. My opponent has not a leg on which to
stand.
Again, I will suggest, Robert needs this word (as well as
adultery and fornication) to mean differently than what the Bible
teaches so he can prove his theory on marriage, divorce, and
remarriage.”
rw It appears that my opponent cannot contemplate the idea that
the majority could be wrong on the issue of divorce and
remarriage. My authority is not human tradition and I have
sought diligently for the correct or biblical definition of the
words Brian mentioned. Indeed, having the proper definition for
put away, adultery and fornication is crucial to understanding
the truth about divorce and remarriage. My opponent has provided
nothing substantial to support his thinking regarding the meaning
of any of the above-mentioned words.
Robert has stated he has changed his view many times on this.
From the evidence, Robert, it may be time for one more change,
hopefully this time by just accepting what the Bible says.
rw Actually, I think I said I changed twice. I wonder if my
opponent has truly studied divorce and remarriage to learn what
the Bible says or if he has just determined to defend tradition,
as he learned it. He suggests that I accept what the Bible says,
but he is the one that will not accept what it says. Rather, he
changes “put away” to divorce. Unfortunately, he is not alone in
having been deceived, but he is the ONLY one, to my knowledge,
that has ever agreed to affirm in debate that apoluo (put away)
means divorce.
Brotherly, Robert Waters