Longhenry/Jackson Debate on Benevolence

 
 
 Proposition: 
 The Scriptures teach that the church, from its treasury, may help only the needy saints.
 
 Affirm:  Ethan R. Longhenry
 Deny: George A. Jackson
 
 I truly appreciate Ethan's kind and gentle tone in the introduction to the debate. It is with no joy 
 that I enter into a debate with a brother in Christ. I love to debate denominational people, but find 
 no joy in debating my own brethren. And pray that only good will come fourth from it, all to the 
 God's glory and for the truth of His word.
 
 My responsibility is to deny or rebut Ethan's affirmation, and this I will endeavor to do.  After 
 defining his proposition, and stating his purpose, Ethan gave me little to work with. Since I am in 
 the rebuttal, and not in the affirmative, I must go with what he has given me. 
 
 Ethan: 
 Let us first define our proposition so that none may be confused concerning that which we speak 
 of. 
 
  "The Scriptures:" the Word of God, the books of Genesis-Malachi representing the Old 
 Testament, and the books of Matthew-Revelation representing the New Testament, the latter of 
 which is our focus here.   
 
 George:
 I am glad that Ethan included the Old Testament in his definition, as we will see when I am in the 
 affirmative.
  
 Ethan 
 "teach:" show as positive example or commandment the things which Christians ought to do.  
 
 George: 
 Note, Ethan uses the word "ought" to do. should not he have expressed a more positive word such 
 as "must," since he is speaking of a commandment? Also keep in mind the words "the things 
 which Christians ought to do.  
 
 Ethan
 "the church:" the body of the saved; for our purposes in this discussion, we are going to use the 
 church in its local sense, the group of believers that would meet in a particular town, such as 
 Corinth or Ephesus. 
 
  "from its treasury:" the place where the money of the church, gained from freewill contributions 
 collected on the first day of the week, is kept (1 Corinthians 16:1-2). 
 
  "may help only the needy saints:" help being assistance in a physical form; for the purpose of our 
 discussion here, we will examine the church's role in assisting its own in a physical sense.  
 "Saints" are those who are members of that body, saved and renewed by Christ (Galatians 3:26-
 27).  "Only" is to be understood to mean that this help is specific to the saints in question, and is 
 for no other.  
 
 George:
 Note: also his definition of "saints" "those who are members of that body, saved and renewed by 
 Christ."  
 
 Ethan:
 I believe that George and I are in agreement about how we determine whether or not we have 
 authority in our practices as a church and/or as an individual.  We must search the Scriptures as 
 the Bereans did (Acts 17:11), and determine whether or not we have a direct commandment to 
 perform a certain activity.  If no such commandment exists, we may look at the examples of the 
 first century church, and if there is an example of such practice approved by those in authority, we 
 then have found authority for it.  Finally, in the absence of command or example, if a text has a 
 clear inference about a practice performed, we may take that as authority for our practices.  If 
 there is no such command, example, or inference that is necessary, we do not have the authority to 
 perform this practice, and must stay away from such things (2 John 9). 
 
 Ethan: 
 It is my singular purpose in this affirmation to show that the Scriptures do teach that the church 
 should help any of its own in a time of need, be it locally in their congregation or universally to 
 any saint or saints that are suffering. 
 
 George:
 Well Ethan, I must concede to your "singular purpose" if this is it. But I believe you may have left 
 out the word "only" and of course, this is what the debate is about. 
 
 Ethan: 
 The most clear example of local churches assisting saints comes originates with a prophet Agabus, 
 who prophecies in Acts 12:28 that a great famine was to plague the land of Judea in the time of the 
 emperor Claudius.  We are then told that disciples who had the means did give for this venture. 
 
 George:  
 Let me state this from the beginning, that there is no argument that Scriptures plainly teach that 
 saints are to help the needy saints from the treasury of the church. The debate is over whether the 
 church may take funds from the treasury to help the needy, other than saints.  
 
 Ethan:
 Furthermore, we have the example that the churches also gave to help out in this time of need.  
 Paul gives such commandment in 1 Corinthians 16:1-3:
 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also.  
 On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that 
 no collections be made when I come.  When I arrive, whomever you may approve, I will send 
 them with letters to carry your gift to Jerusalem. 
 
 George:
 Ethan is following the way the  denominations do when they say the Bible plainly teaches that one 
 is save by faith/belief/trust. and point to the many Scriptures that one is saved by believing. But, as 
 we point out, it does not say faith/belief/believing "only." So I too must point out to Ethan that 
 nowhere does the Scripture say "saints only" or "only the saints." For Ethan to prove his 
 proposition he must come up with a verse that says the church "may help only the needy saints:" 
 God gave us the book of James to prove that one is not saved by faith alone or only. Where does 
 God give the verse for "saints alone or only? Maybe Ethan will give us that verse or passage 
 before the debate is over.   
 
 Ethan:
 In 2 Corinthians 8:1-5, Paul tells the church at Corinth of the generosity of the churches in 
 Macedonia: Now, brethren, we wish to make known to you the grace of God which has been given 
 in the churches of Macedonia, that in a great ordeal of affliction their abundance of joy and their 
 deep poverty overflowed in the wealth of their liberality.  For I testify that according to their 
 ability, and beyond their ability, they gave of their own accord, begging us with much urging for 
 the favor of participation in the support of the saints, and this  not as we had expected, but they 
 first gave themselves to the Lord and to us by the will of God. Therefore, we see that in this time 
 of distress, churches were commanded to give to assist those in need, and they did so bountifully. 
 
 George: 
 This is another example of saints helping saints. Note, nowhere does it say "saints only", or "only 
 saints" which is in his affirmation. 
 
 Ethan: 
 Now, the Scriptures do not speak only of those saints in need in faraway places.  Later, Paul writes 
 to Timothy concerning the church in Ephesus (1 Timothy 1:3) and a "list" of widows (1 Timothy 
 5).  We do not know much about this list, but what we do know is that widows were on it, but only 
 certain widows, as seen in 1 Timothy 5:9-10: A widow is to be put on the list only if she is not less 
 than sixty years old, having been the wife of one man, having a reputation for good works; and if 
 she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saints' 
 feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good work. 
 Furthermore, younger widows were not to be on this list, but should be remarried (verses 10-15).  
 Finally, we see that these widows would be supported by the church, in verse 16:
 If any woman who is a believer has dependent widows, she must assist them and the church must 
 not be burdened, so that it may assist those who are widows indeed. Therefore, we have an 
 approved Scriptural example of the church helping out its own who could not help themselves!    
 It must be noted from the above verse that the church should only be burdened with assistance 
 when no other avenue of assistance is available.   Those who can be taken care of by individual 
 Christians ought to be taken care of by individual Christians, and the church should not be 
 burdened so that it may help "those who are widows indeed." Therefore, we have seen from the 
 Scriptures that the early churches helped saints in distress, be it on a distant shore or within its 
 own.  
 
 George:
 I cannot debate this for every word is true. But, what we are waiting on is the scripture up holding 
 the proposition that the Christians can only help the needy saints.    
 
 Ethan:
 We do not have any such example for the churches assisting anyone else, nor a commandment 
 made or an inference that is necessary.  Thus, we can conclude from the Scriptures that the local 
 church ought to provide for its own or for any other Christian in need, and that no such 
 commandment exists for the assistance of those not in the fold.  
 
 George: 
 Remember, I said to remember Ethan's definition of "saints" "those who are members of that 
 body, saved and renewed by Christ." So with this definition in mind let look at the "collection for 
 the saints" in Jerusalem. Were there any infants, small children, in the families of the saints in 
 Jerusalem? Were both parents Christians? If there was, according to Ethan, they could not receive 
 any of the collection "for the saints." Because he also made this statement part of his definition: 
 "Only" is to be understood to mean that this help is specific to the saints in question, and is for no 
 other."     No food could be bought, no clothing, etc. for the one parent, or the infant, or the child 
 that had not been  "saved and renewed by Christ." What is the result of such a teaching? Starving 
 infants and children with no food or whatever needs they needed, because they are not "saints". 
 Who can believe such? But that is the results of Ethan's proposition.  One member, if a saint, 
 could received what they needed, but other members of the same household could not receive any 
 of the "collection". If Ethan says they could, then he has surrendered his own proposition! Ethan 
 do you really believe Christ would allow such to go on in His church? Also could a Christian 
 stand by and watch his neighbor starve, if one had means (his part of the collection). to help him, 
 even thought he was not a saint? I dislike asking Ethan these questions, but to bring out the full 
 impact of Ethan's proposition and his definitions of his proposition I must. Lets again look at what 
 Ethan is saying: "Saints" are those who are members of that body, saved and renewed by Christ 
 (Galatians 3:26-27).  "Only" is to be understood to mean that this help is specific to the saints in 
 question, and is for no other." The help if it comes from the "treasury" of a local congregation can 
 only be used to help the "saints, and is for no other" If one who is not a saint comes into your 
 building one Lord's day, a day that is very hot and ask for a drink of water, may you gave it to 
 him, since the water fountain was paid for with church funds? Would you allow him to eat the 
 bread and drink the fruit of the vine, or would you stop him? Since they are purchased with funds 
 from the treasury?
 
 George A Jackson