Strom/Mowery Debate on Premillenialism

 
 
 Proposition: 
 The view of PREMILLENNIALISM, as viewed by the SEVENTH DAY 
 ADVENTIST, is unscriptural.
 
 Affirm:  Dub Mowery
 Deny:  Bob Strom
 
 Dub
 Bob, by your persistence in looking at the figurative language of  
 the last four chapters of Revelation as being literal, you are 
 forced to either pervert or ignore other passages of scripture 
 that actually speak  in literal terms.  Revelation 19:11-21 and 
 Revelation 20:10-15 are both  referring to the Great Day of 
 Judgment.
 
 Bob
 As has already been pointed out - Revelation is in fact a MIX 
 literal facts  and symbols, you have rejected all attempts to 
 dialogue on that point and have instead  repeatedly gone  back to 
 the fact that symbols are present in Revelation. It would have 
 helped  push this along beyond the first step to have responded 
 to that point.
  
 The key to proving your point is to take the 1000 years and 
 "show" why they can't really be 1000 years. Your argument so far 
 as been that they can't really be 1000  years because the book 
 ever employed a symbol. 
 
 But since we both admit to real literal facts mixed in with  the 
 symbols in the book (as in the case of Rev 14 above) - your 
 argument needs to get passed the "symbols exist" argument and on 
 to a compelling point.  
 ========================================================
 
 Dub
 For you to insist that Revelation  19:11-21 be recognized as what 
 will literally take place when our Lord returns would have Him 
 actually riding a white horse and physically killing all the 
 unrighteous with a literal sword that extends out of His mouth.  
 
 Bob
 Again - I don't know how helpful that approach is - since I never 
 claimed that the book of Revelation was not a book using a MIX of 
 symbols and literal  facts.
 
 You continue to build this 'no literal facts' argument above 
 without addressing the points I already gave in response to that, 
 showing that in fact you don't  believe that literal facts are 
 absent from the book of Revelation. 
 =====================================================
 
 Dub
 By your insistence on interpreting figurative language as if it 
 were literal, causes that approach to the inspired Word of God to 
 contradict plain passages of scripture elsewhere.
 
 Bob
 First you have to make the case that in the MIX of symbols with 
 literal fact either
 a. - There is no MIX it is all symbols and no literal fact 
 mentioned in Rev is true. Something I have opened for further 
 discussion several times but you seem to ignore. So you make no 
 attempt to prove  that here.
 b. OR - show that in the MIX I have chosen something as literal 
 which CAN NOT be literal.
 
 You make no attempt to do that here. You seem to insist that this 
 literal view of the city would "contradict  scripture" but make 
 no attempt to prove your case here. 
 =========================================================
 
 Dub
 You then attempt to change the meaning of those scriptures from 
 that which is plainly taught to harmonize with your unfounded 
 theory.  John  5:28-29 is a prime example of those passages in 
 which you are attempting  to change what is actually taught by 
 them.  Your futile effort to pervert  that passage by claiming 
 that the hour of the resurrection of both the righteous and the 
 unrighteous does not refer to a specific hour of the day.
 
 Bob
 It is unclear that your "your futile effort to pervert" language 
 is in keeping with your closing claim that you entered no 'catty 
 remarks' in your replies. Just a thought.
 
 As for the actual language I used in the John 5 answer already 
 given. Since  you are dedicating some time here to make your case 
 on John 5 - I recommend taking a quote from me and showing  that 
 something was "perverted"  or actually responding to the points 
 already made here that in fact two  resurrections are named and 
 that the term "hour" as used by John can apply to the entire 2000 
 year span from his  day to ours as was seen in the  example "this 
 is the last hour".
 
 Your entire case was based on your assertion that the phrase "an 
 hour is comming" can not refer to a 1000 year span in the same 
 way "IT is the last hour" refers to the past 2000 years. Yet you  
 still do not respond to that point. 
 =================================================================
 
 Dub
 In your effort to uphold the concept of two literal physical  
 resurrections, you had to claim that the hour of John 5:28-29 did 
 not mean a specific hour of a day.  ... However, your effort did 
 not prove that the word "hour" as used by the Apostle John always 
 meant a long  period of time.
 
 Bob
 You are missing the point here. 
 
 Because I already have the 1000 year span in Rev 20, MY 
 assignment is to prove that John's use of 'an hour' CAN include a 
 1000 year span. I showed that he used  the term to include even a 
 2000 year span.
 
 ON the other hand - YOUR entire case in John 5 is based on 
 proving that the phrase "an hour" CAN NEVER mean anything other 
 than 60 minutes when used by John or that something specific to 
 John 5 itself prevents it. But you make no attempt to prove that.
 
 Simply proving that the phrase can SOMETIMES mean 60 literal 
 minutes does not help you since you have the explicit 1000 year 
 span opposing your view in Rev 20. It simply does not place my 
 view in  enough doubt for you to prove that "at times it is 
 possible for this phrase  to reference 60 minutes and I hope that 
 is what it is doing in John 5".
 
 Dub
 Here are some of the scripture references in the gospel  of John 
 in which an hour definitely meant a specific hour of the day.   
 They are as follows:  (John 1:39; 4:6, 52; 19:14).
 
 Bob
 Again - as I pointed out - my view does not require that John 
 never use the phrase to mean "60 minutes"nor that things like  
 "the 10th hour" (John 1:39) can't really mean the 10th hour in 
 every case. My point is defended sufficiently - once it can be 
 shown that we BOTH agree the term "Hour" can apply to a 1000 or  
 2000 year span. 
 ====================================================
 
 Dub
 Acts 24:15 definitely reveals that there will be only one  
 resurrection of the physically dead.
 
 Bob
 Scripture truths AGGREGATE to form the whole teaching on a given 
 doctrine - the list does not bifurcate so that we may choose one 
 text to believe AS IS and then abolish the rest.
 
 For example
 Acts 24:15 "And have hope toward God, which they themselves also 
 allow, that there shall be a  resurrection of the dead, both of 
 the just and unjust."  
 
 Clearly teaches that all the dead (both the righteous and the 
 wicked) will one day be raised. All can agree here.
 
 But can we pretend that this is the only information we have so 
 that we conclude that it all happens at a single point in time in 
 one single resurrection?
 
 Certainly that would be a reasonable speculation to make IF this 
 really were all the information scripture gave us so this is a 
 very good text for those to focus on who wish to reject  the 
 truths of Phil 3:11, Rev 20:4 and 1Thess 4 showing us that the 
 righteous are indeed raised - but in the first resurrection 
 before the resurrection of judgment spoken of by Christ in John 
 5:28.
  
 However since all Bible doctrine is built on cumulative facts/ 
 truths/texts where scripture truth is aggregated instead of 
 bifurcated to get the whole balanced view - we can not simply 
 stop with Acts 24. We don't take 3 of our favorite and try to 
 abolish or neutralize the rest of scripture that we don't like.
 
 For example Christ says "The Father is greater than I" and "I go 
 to My God and Your God" etc. A few people take these scriptures 
 and try to abolish the truth that Christ  is Himself God, the 2nd 
 person of the Godhead. We know that if they were the ONLY texts 
 dealing with the subject we might  well suppose Christ was not 
 God, but since we have others that clearly show Christ is not 
 only with  God but Christ IS Himself God, we ADD the information 
 to get the expanded details of the WHOLE topic.
 
 Yet many who see clearly the fallacy of bifurcating scripture in 
 the case of Christ - proceed to do so in the case of the two 
 resurrections named in scripture.   
 ==========================================================
 
 Dub
 Your response to the description of the Great Day of Judgment  
 recorded at Matthew 25:31-46 is a dodge to the plain description 
 therein.
 
 Bob
 notice--NO mention of the resurrection of the wicked.  
 
 Dub
 there is not any mention of the resurrection of the righteous 
 either. 
 
 Bob
 As you point out here - the Matt 25 text is not specifically 
 addressing the subject of resurrection. But we both agree that 
 resurrection does occur at the return of Christ when He sits on 
 His throne and judges mankind. Rev 20 describes that resurrection 
 in much more detail. 
 =================================================================
 
 Dub
 The Apostle Paul wrote by inspiration, "For we must all appear 
 before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive 
 the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, 
 whether it be good or bad" (II Cor. 5:10).
 
 Bob
 Paul does not mention the return of Christ or the resurrection in 
 2Cor 5 so you might have some difficulty associating this 
 judgment with resurrection.  Further, Rev 14 makes it appear that 
 there is a judgment that takes place before the return of Christ. 
 ===========================================
 
 Dub here: 
 Matthew 25:31-46 is not a description of the saints living among 
 the unrighteous, but rather the Day of Judgment in which the 
 entire human race is judged according to how they lived. >>
 
 Bob
 Matt 25:
 31 But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels 
 with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will 
 separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the 
 sheep from the goats;
 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the 
 left.
 34 Then the King will say to those on His right, "Come, you who 
 are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you 
 from the foundation of the world.
 
 Matt 25 above - it says that inheritence of the Kingdom of God 
 does not happen until the end of the world.
 
 Dub
 ... At that time, you claimed that you agreed with that.  The 
 moderators can back me up on that fact! And yet, you now claim 
 that the saints have not inherited the kingdom yet.  
 
 Bob
 In this debate I have not said that the "Saints inherited the 
 kingdom " of any kind at Pentecost nor do I believe it, nor do 
 SDAs teach it. If you have a quote for that I am very interested 
 in it. In the mean time - 1Cor 15 stands regarding the return of 
 Christ --
 
 1Cor 15
 34 Then the King will say to those on His right, "Come, you who 
 are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you 
 from the foundation of the world. 
 ============================================================
  
 Dub
 Since the book of Revelation is a book written primarily in 
 symbolic language (Rev. 1:1)...
 
 Bob
 So here we have common ground - the book is a mix of symbolic and 
 literal statements. The key then is to find a rule to be used to 
 find out which is which.
 
 By simply jumping back to the observation that it is a book with 
 a mix of symbols and literal truths - we gain little since we 
 already agree to that. 
 
 So also, appealing to the fact that symbols exist in the book 
 helps very little since we both agree to that and no claim is 
 successful that says no literal facts are stated in the book.
 
 I have tried to get us to move forward on this point since the 
 start.
 ======================================================
 
 Dub
 , we need to consider the location of the Apostle John...  This 
 is obviously why the vision of the eternal home of the redeemed 
 was brought down for John to view. ....
 
 Bob
 All prophets were on earth when they saw visions - you might want 
 to say that for this reason something came down from heaven - but 
 visions are of the nature that they do not depend on the prophet 
 physically moving to some place before they can see things in 
 that place. 
 
 I suggest we avoid introducing speculation about "why God shows 
 the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven" as if that 
 speculation itself were in the text of scripture.
 
 Dub
 Isa. 65:17; Isa. 66:22; and II Pet. 3:13). Many erroneously 
 interpret all four of those passages to teach that the redeemed 
 will live eternally on a physical earth with the Lord after this 
 present life is over. Such an interpretation of those passages 
 contradict other passages of scripture. In referring to the 
 literal physical world, Jesus declared, "Heaven and earth shall 
 pass away,..." (Matt. 24:35). 
 
 Bob
 Your argument is that there can not be a new earth of Heaven and 
 earth pass away - but Rev 21 directly contradicts your 
 assumption. Furthermore Peter makes it clear that the destruction 
 of earth has already occurred once and will occur again. 
 According to you, we can not be here since earth was destroyed 
 once already (2Pet 3:6). 
 
 Then taking that unsupportable assumption you seek to undo all 
 scriptures speaking of the New Earth and man living in it, 
 inheriting it, etc. That is an incredibly weak position to take - 
 I would avoid it.
  
 Promise of the New Earth - fulfilled Literally
 
 Matt 5:5 ""Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the 
 earth.
 
 Revelation 21
 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven 
 and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of 
 heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, ""Behold, the 
 tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and 
 they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, ...
 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high 
 mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out 
 of heaven from God,
 
 Is 66:
 22 For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make 
 will endure before Me, declares the LORD, So your offspring and 
 your name will endure. 
 23 And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to 
 sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me, says the 
 LORD. 
 24 Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who 
 have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And 
 their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence 
 to all mankind. 
 
 Is 11
 6 And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, and the leopard will lie 
 down with the kid, and the calf and the young lion and the 
 fatling together;  and a little child shall lead them. 
 7 And the cow and the bear will graze; Their young will lie down 
 together; And the lion will eat straw like the Ox. 
 8 And the nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, and 
 the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. 
 9. They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, for the 
 earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord 
 
 Dub
 The Apostle Peter wrote about the second coming of Christ and the 
 destruction of the physical universe ... (II Pet. 3:10-13).  
 Thus, the physical universe will pass away when Jesus Christ 
 returns at the end of time. 
 
 Bob
 If Heavens and Earth are taken to mean "physical universe' then 
 so also does New Heavens and New Earth mean "new physical 
 universe". 
 
 Peter has already shown in this very chapter that the earth was 
 destroyed at the flood. - hint. 
 ========================================?
 
 Dub
 This will not provide a period of time for the Son of God to take 
 the righteous to heaven for 1,000 years and then return to 
 inhabit a renovated earth forever with the righteous. 
 
 Bob
 Your argument also argues that we can't possibly be here on earth 
 today since the earth was already destroyed.
 
 The destruction that takes place in Rev 19 is merely the first 
 phase in the ultimate destruction that takes place in Rev 20 in 
 the lake of fire.
 
 Conditions at the start of the millenium have not happened and 
 will not happen until Christ's return.   These events are 
 described by John and by other Bible authors.
 
 A. Christ comes in wrath - and destroys the "beast" that killed 
 the saints.
 B. All the birds of earth feast on the dead corpses slain at 
 Christ's coming
 C. The righteous dead raised (even if we limit it to those killed 
 by the beast for not receiving the Mark).
 D. Satan is bound and unnable to act - tossed into the bottomless 
 pit, chained, no longer a problem.
 E. All the wicked are destroyed in chapter 19 and remain dead for 
 the entire 1000 years just as John states.
 F. The wicked have no part in the first resurrection - just as 
 John states.
 G. The earth is left with cities ruined
 H. Corpses strewn all across the planet's surface
 I. No Man left alive upon the surface of the earth - only ruined 
 cities
 
 Jer 4:23 
 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And 
 to the heavens, and they had no light. 
 24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And 
 all the hills moved to and fro.
 25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of 
 the heavens had fled.
 26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And 
 all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His 
 fierce anger.
 
 Jer 25:33 Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one 
 end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, 
 gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the 
 ground.
 
 Zeph 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to 
 deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth 
 will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a 
 complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of 
 the earth.
 
 Isaiah 24
 1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts 
 its surface and scatters its inhabitants. 
 2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his 
 master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, 
 the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor. 
 3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely 
 despoiled, 
 
 17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the 
 earth.
 18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will 
 fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be 
 caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the 
 foundations of the earth shake.
 19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The 
 earth is shaken violently.
 20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like 
 a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will 
 fall, never to rise again.
 21 So it will happen in that day, That the LORD will punish the 
 host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth.
 22 They will be gathered together Like prisoners in the dungeon, 
 And will be confined in prison; And after many days they will be 
 punished.
 
 Those who reject the millenium or the first resurrection rapture 
 described in Rev 20 often declare that such conditions as we see 
 described here - can not exist and should be ignored.
 
 Ez 32:4-8
 4 I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open 
 field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on 
 you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
 5 I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys 
 with your refuse.
 6 I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As 
 far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
 7 And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken 
 their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will 
 not give its light.
 8 All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you 
 And will set darkness on your land, Declares the Lord GOD. 
 
 This feast of the birds we see described again in Rev 19 where 
 the lamb destroys certain of mankind 20 And the beast was seized, 
 and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his 
 presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of 
 the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were 
 thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21 
 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth 
 of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with 
 their flesh 
 ===============================
  
 Dub
 Jesus is presently preparing an eternal home for the righteous in 
 the heaven of heavens (John 14:1-3; II Cor. 5:1). As long as we 
 live in a physical body we will not enjoy our eternal home in 
 heaven (II Cor. 5:1-9; I Cor. 15:50-57). 
 
 Bob
 I will agree with your statements to the point that Christ is 
 preparing a place for us in heaven and we will actually go there 
 after the resurrection.  AFter He "comes again" to receive us 
 unto himself - John 14:1-4
 
 However 1Cor 15 makes it clear that the discussion is about the 
 resurrection of the body and the fact that iIT is raised 
 imperishable. Not a debatable issue.
 
 I have enjoyed this debate but could wish for more for a focused 
 exchange on the 5 or 6 points on which the debate actually turns 
 - and regret that you did not choose to ever respond to the Phil 
 3:11 issue showing that merely to attain to the resurrection at 
 Christ's return is sufficient to convey the meaning of eternal 
 life.
 
 Sincerely, 
 Bob Strom