Strom/Mowrey Debate on Premillenialism
Bob Strom's Second Rebuttal
Proposition:
The view of PREMILLENNIALISM, as viewed by the SEVENTH DAY
ADVENTIST, is unscriptural.
Affirm: Dub Mowery
Deny: Bob Strom
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Dub
Bob, I have read over and over chapters 19 through 22 of the
book of Revelation and do not see anything close to a "distant
cousin" pertaining to the Seventh Day Adventist Church's
doctrine concerning the end of time and the events thereafter.
Bob
I had hoped you would be a bit more objective as you studied
these scriptures even though it might be at some risk to job.
(Though I applaud your returning to the subject of the SDA view
on the millennium and 2 resurrections in this post instead of
directing focus to the Adventist church in general and who
founded it, when etc. ).
Rev 20
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was
given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been
beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the
word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his
image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on
their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a
thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand
years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Instead of believing this as it is written here, your choice is
to refuse to believe this as it is written. Your argument has
been that since the book uses symbols you feel free to try to
get ALL details in the book relegated to mere symbols as well.
You have been careful to purge any reference to my response on
that point regarding the absolute unquestionable facts written AS
IS in the book of Revelation on a number of subjects - such as
God being the creator and judge (Rev 14).
Instructive.
And here in this latest affirmative - you ignore my entire
response, details, points raised etc and with a broad wave of the
hand pronounce - another assertion - you find "nothing close to a
second cousin" to what we see written about two resurrections
and a 1000 year period of time between the first and second that
it SAYS it is talking about." when read as written. As I have
already stated - debate via assertion piled upon assertion is not
a compelling form of persuasion.
God preserve Christian leaders from such a complete lack of
objectivity.
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When you read the Rev 19 text speaking of Christ's return - you
hope to ignore even it's symbols of Christ - used so clearly in
Scripture and turn this into the return from heaven of 'nothing
like a second cousin" to Christ and so not a reference to the
return of Christ with the armies of heaven- like 2Thess 1
describes even though this is how it reads in Rev 19
Interesting,
Here are the points already raised in that chapter alone - that
you are choosing to ignore with the "nothing like a second
cousin" detailed review.
A. Christ is identified in Rev 19 based on John's work in John 1
- "the Word".
Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name
is called The Word of God.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with
God, and the Word was God.
"King of Kings and Lord of Lord" - the Lamb = Christ Rev 19 16
And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, KING OF
KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 17:14 These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will
overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and
those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said,
Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! John
1:36 etc
But you declare that the symbols of Christ - the Lamb, The Word,
The King of Kings and the armies of heaven coming out of heaven
and really engaging the armies of earth - are not to be believed
EVEN if we take the symbols and admit to them referencing
Christ - STILL not to be believed as written - "nothing like a
second cousin" to what is written in fact.
God preserve our Christian leaders from such a lack of
objectivity.
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Dub
Since the book of Revelation is primarily a book of symbolic
language, how in the world do you come up with such a concept? ....
How do you know when something is literal or figurative?
...
Again, Bob, how do you determine when scripture is to be
interpreted as literal and when is it to be interpreted as
figurative. I especially ask you to tell me how you make that
determination concerning the contents of the book of Revelation.
Bob
Everything is to be taken literally unless there is an obvious
symbol employed.
This makes for an objective, verifiable, repeatable rule that can
be used in all of scripture, so that ALL can get the SAME clear
meaning instead of each person just "making up whatever meets
their fancy".
For example - when Christ describes the separation of the sheep
from the goats in Matt 25:31 we need not pretend to be confused
by the fact that symbols of sheep and goats are used for his
description of the time of the end and his return. And just so
we need not be confused in Rev 14:14 when we see the earth
reaped and the wicked and righteous being separated or we see
the declaration in that chapter that God is creator AND judge.
(Facts in my responses to you which you have chosen to purge in
your reply).
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As for the books of Daniel and Revelation 'pertaining to the end
of time' - the evidence is clear, objective and obvious.
A. There can be no doubt among any Christian group that Daniel
and Revelation are both apocalyptic books linked together in that
Revelation uses many of the symbols in Daniel. They are
companion books.
B. Daniel makes it clear that the subjects do apply to the end of
time.
Daniel 8:17 tells us that we need to see these events as
pertaining to the time of the end. Daniel 12:4 says it pertains
to the "end of time" Rev 13 uses the same symbols as we see used
in Daniel 7 in it's composite beast.
C. Revelation itself leaves us with no doubt about the end of
time and the return of Christ as we have seen in Rev 19, 20, 21
as well as Rev 6 and 14.
Rev 6:14-17 describes the great day of wrath, the sky split as
scroll the wicked crying for the rocks and mountains to fall on
them because they seek to hide from the PRESENCE of Him who
sits on the throne.
Rev 19:15 declares that it is speaking of the day when the
heavens open and armies which are in heaven come down with Christ
who rules with a rod of iron (judgment). Specifically in the
destruction of the wicked.
Rev 14 shows us the same separation of the sheep and goats - that
Christ describes in the gospels and tells us that it takes place
at the end of time.
You may choose to address this point - or ignore it in your
response, but I will remember it.
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Dub
Did you just swallow "hook, line, and sinker" the Seventh Day
Adventist's teaching pertaining to the end of time and their
claims concerning those last four chapters of Revelation?
Bob
While I am happy to discuss the detailed evidence provided so far
regarding Rev 19, 20, 21 etc. I do not want to make the
impression that the Adventist church is the only Christian
church recognizing the truth of Rev 19-end as pertaining to the
time of the end. Indeed almost all of Christianity recognizes
that obvious fact. That is the part held in "common" - that
obvious 'end of time, return of Christ, resurrection of righteous
and the subsequent millennium" is not in any way unique to
Adventism.
We both know that.
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Dub
How would the average person, who reads the Bible, come to the
conclusions held by the Adventist on the things pertaining to the
end of time and the events thereafter? I do not see how
anyone would draw such conclusions by just reading the entire New
Testament.
Bob
First they would NOT have to come to it with the bias of "I will
NOT believe what it clearly says".
Second they would choose to BELIEVE what is said is literal
unless an obvious symbol is employed (as in the Matt 25 sheep
and goats).
This is so obvious that they would have had to be doing this all
through their reading of scripture.
Third - AS IT TURNS OUT - not all Christian churches are SDA -
yet almost all recognize the truth of Rev 19-22 pertaining to the
return of Christ and the following millennium and New Earth
etc. Soooo the idea that ONLY Adventists would figure this out
because they have SDA doctrines - is totally false.
And of course - we both agree here as well.
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Dub
My entire adult life has been devoted to learning, applying, and
teaching Biblical truths. There is not anything in this world in
which I would place above the truths found in the inspired Word
of God. Whether you or someone else presented a Biblical truth
unto me, in which I had not known before, then I would not
hesitate to readily admit it and thank the person for doing so.
Bob
Dub that is a big statement - and I appreciate your be willing to
make it even though it could really cost you a lot - to carefully
review each point I have raised and show a compelling response to
each point raised.
But the proof of whether you are willing to follow that statement
up with actions in support - is lacking. You need to quote the
points made and response to each one or at least half of them to
put "feet" to that statement above.
Dub
Bob, do you really hunger and thirst for a clearer knowledge of
God's Word? It is my prayer that both you and me would not
hesitate to accept a Biblical truth that has been presented unto
us, regardless of who presented that truth unto us.
Bob
Agreed. But the "process" we must adopt to pursue that goal needs
to be objective, thorough and compelling. Merely tossing unproven
assertions back and forth without examining the texts raised -
would accomplish little or nothing. We would need to carefully
quote the other person's points and respond to each one. As you
see I have done consistently.
And I think we both know this is true as well.
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Dub
However, you have not provided a single verse of scripture that
proves the teaching of the Seventh Day Adventist Church
concerning its teaching on premillenialism. Not one!
Bob
A wonderful assertion - and the evidence? the proof? the
compelling response to those dozens of points with explicit
quotes of scripture???
Surely we both agree that if we simply trade assertions - we
prove little or nothing.
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Dub
Scriptures do not contradict one another; therefore, any
understanding of the book of Revelation that would contradict
plain teachings elsewhere in the Bible must be rejected. After
all, God is not the author of confusion (I Cor. 14:33).
Bob
Fortunately we both agree here as well.
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Dub
You claim that there will be two literal resurrections of the
dead separated by a 1,000 year period.
Bob
That was from the explicit text of Rev 20 which I quoted - I
notice you have deleted the text of scripture and my quote.
Dub
The Bible recognizes only one literal resurrection
Bob
This is not a quote of Rev 20, nor of the points I presented nor
of the supporting points I raised from John 5, 1Thess4 and 1Cor
15.
Clearly we can not simply talk past each other in making our
points and hope to accomplish real understanding of truth in the
dialogue.
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Dub
of all the physically dead at the second coming of Christ (John
5:28-29;
Bob
As already pointed out - John 5 does not mention the return of
Christ explicitly but it DOES explicitly NAME two resurrections.
This has been pointed out several times - you are free to
carry the discussion forward by referencing those quotes and
actually responding to the points already raised.
For example I have mentioned the case Paul makes in Phil 3 that
ANYONE who makes it to that resurrection - has obtained eternal
life. You apparently do not consider Paul's reference to that
resurrection worth responding to for this discussion, it is clear
why you might want to keep deleting the reference.
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Dub
The Day of Judgment will transpire at the second coming of
Christ. There will not be a third advent of the Son of God (II
Thess. 1:7-10; Matt. 25:31-46).
Bob
There is no mention of "second advent" or 'third advent" in
scripture. This does not mean Christ will not return or that the
return of Christ described in Rev 19 and the return that we see
in Rev 21 are not real or are not "really" separated by 1000
years just as John tells us they are. Rather they are quite real
and really separated by 1000 years. This is what scripture says
and it is so clear and obvious that many more Christians other
than Adventists read and understand this without help from SDAs
at all.
So far your assertion above stands without proof or response to
the case already presented on this point.
Again - your method is still, assertion upon assertion. To get to
compelling response we need a detailed look at the points raised
in our discussion and a direct response.
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Dub
Your claim that Christ will ultimately reign here upon a
renovated earth forever with the righteous has absolutely no
foundation.
Bob
Another good assertion.
The way to build your case when making that kind of assertion is
to quote actual claim I made along with what I provided as
evidence and SHOW that it does not support my view. Unless you
take the time to actually do that, you won't be able to support
your assertion above - a conclusion without the required
"proof" worked out.
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Dub
Our Lord has completed His work here upon earth. As our Lord
prayed unto the Heavenly Father, He said, "I have glorified thee
on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest
me to do" (John 17:4). After the Son of God was resurrected from
the dead He ascended back to heaven to prepare an eternal home
for the redeemed (John 14:1-3; II Cor. 5:1).
Bob
- the part we all agree with.
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Dub
At the end of time He will return to resurrect all of the
physically dead (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15).
Bob
This was already covered in my last response. Should you care to
carry the point forward by responding to that response - I am
waiting.
The space used in your second affirm might have included a
response to this - but it did not.
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We know - Paul tells that simply to ATTAIN to the first
resurrection at Christ's return - the resurrection of the
righteous (John 5:28-29, Luke 14:13-14 is to arrive at eternal
life (Phil 3).
For Paul describes those raised at Christ's return as "the dead
in Christ" 1Thess 4.
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Rev 20 says that the great white throne judgment deals with the
dead 1000 years after Christ returns for the righteous - Matt 25
deals with the living without any reference to the dead or to
resurrection or to separating the good dead from the wicked dead.
Your argument is that if the wicked living at the time of
Christ's return are judged - then they can't be literally judged
at the end of the literal 1000 years as John literally says -
literally raised from the dead and judged as those over whom the
second death literally has power.
No such contradiction exists between a REAL literally reading of
Rev 20 and Matt 25 SINCE Matt 25 makes no reference to the dead
being judged and Rev 20 makes no reference to the living being
judged.
The Matt 25 judgment destroys all the living wicked - just as Rev
19 describes Christ doing. The Rev 20 judgment raises the wicked
dead and judges them.
I agree that chapters of Rev 19-21 give us FAR more detail than
the 10 vs of Matt 25 - but other than that - no other
differences.
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II Thess. 1:7-10).
Both views agree that God judges the living wicked at Christ's
return - where we DIFFER is your assertion that God RAISES the
wicked BEFORE the 1000 years that starts with the return of
Christ vs raising them AFTER the 1000 years as God's Word states
in Revelation.
Dub
This Great Day of Judgment will take place on the last day (John
12:48). When will that be?
Bob
Indeed - when - scripture shows us that the great white throne
judgment is after the 1000 years IF we agree to read and accept
scripture AS it is written - otherwise we find nothing like a
second cousin to what Rev 20 actually says in our own doctrines.
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Dub
At Matthew 24:36, the Son of God refers to the end of time when
the physical universe will pass away in the following words:
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of
heaven, but my Father only." It is obvious that He is referring
to a specific time with the words "day and hour".
Bob
I agree that Matt 24 describes the day of Christ's return - I do
not agree that it describes the destruction of the physical
universe. This is simply another addition you have made to the
text.
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Dub
You did not even deal with Acts 24:15, which states, "And have
hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there
shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and
unjust." That passage definitely speaks of a singular
resurrection of both the just and unjust. It says, "a
resurrection", not "first resurrection and second resurrection",
or "resurrections".
Bob
Ahhh - you sound like me with my two dozen points waiting to be
addressed, you have found your one.
Though I did address Acts 24 in my last post - you are free to
quote that and then move the discussion on that text forward.
Surely you would agree that not addressing the points raised - is
not working.
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Dub
Why do you suppose the Lord would take the righteous back to
heaven for 1,000 years if the earth is to be their eternal home?
Bob
Because I choose to believe God's Word as it reads in Rev 20 -
Scripture tells us that they sit on thrones and judgment is given
to them during that time. Read it for yourself in Rev 20:4.
Though you may object to believing it AS it reads - getting "the
idea' from God's word by believing what we read - is something
Christians have been doing for quite some time. Paul tells us
that the saints will judge angels (1Cor 6).
Dub
And why would He resurrect the unrighteous if He is going to
annihilate them anyway according to the Adventist there will not
be an eternal hell (Gehenna)?
Bob
Same reason - because I choose to believe God's Word as it reads
in Rev 20. There we find that the 2nd death is the lake of fire.
The first death is NOT the second death and the first death is
NOT the wages of sin - or else all the saints would have paid
their OWN DEBT of sin (needing no savior) if they had died. God
shows that he does not count the first death as paying that debt
- on the second death.
Jude tells us that God will come to convict the ungodly of all
their deeds before destroying them in that judgment.
In any case, you have already stated your own reluctance to
accept God's Word as it reads in Rev 20, but the answer to your
questions is found there just the same.
Sincerely,
Bob Strom