Strom/Mowery Debate on Premillenialism
Bob Strom's Third Affirmative
Proposition:
The thousand years of Rev 20 are real literal years that start
with the literal return of Christ and the real resurrection of
the righteous as described in 1Thess 4 and Rev 20.
Affirmed: Bob Strom
Deny: Dub Mowery
Dub
Bob, the crux of our discussion must be based upon the fact that
the book of Revelation is written in highly symbolic terminology.
I remind you again that at Revelation 1:1 the Apostle John sets
the stage for the book of Revelation. It states in that very
first verse that it was "signified" unto John. It was given in
symbolic language. This last book of the Bible is in a literary
form known as apocalyptic, which means that it is put forth by a
series of visions in symbolic language.
Bob
There is no question that many symbols are employed in
apocalyptic writing. However it is an error to presume that every
word of scripture found in an apocalyptic book must not be
literal. Just as we find symbols in other books - so we find even
more symbols in apocalyptic writing and this is what we expect.
But the same rule applies - observe and see the literal and note
the use of symbols when they are obviously present.
And in apocalyptic writing they are present in much higher
numbers - and it is obvious to all.
That is the part all agree on.
Dub
Usually we interpret language to be literal as the normal rule
and figurative as the exception. But in the book of Revelation
John tells us that the normal rule for that book is figurative
and therefore the exception is literal.
Bob
#1 John tells us he is using symbols - but does not tell us that
every word of his book is a symbol. And he does not tell us to
throughout out anything that is normal/literal/common and
interpret it all as symbols IN ADDITION to the many obvious
symbols we see in the book.
#2. Your approach opens a Pandora's box of error. For then every
whim and fancy of anyone may be injected to every text, word and
paragraph. With utter freedom to make "anything of it you want"
EVEN the most literal statements may (by the rule your propose)
be reworked to the four corners of the earth.
But when we stay with the same, sound, Bible principles of
interpretation that are ALREADY proven reliable and rock-solid
(in the book of John for example regarding the Lamb of God) - we
find stable, dependable, repeatable, consistent interpretation in
Revelation - albeit with a book using many many more symbols
since it is apocalyptic writing.
So I have chosen to stay with the reliable proven method of Bible
interpretation that has already been tested and proven in the
other books of God's Word. While recognizing the clear and
obvious symbols used in Revelation - I also freely embrace his
use of literal terminology, concepts, language.
======================
8. Conditions at the start of the millennium have not happened
and will not happen until Christ's return. These events are
described by John and by other Bible authors.
A. Christ comes in wrath - and destroys the "beast" that killed
the saints.
B. All the birds of earth feast on the dead corpses slain at
Christ's coming
C. The righteous dead raised (even if we limit it to those killed
by the beast for not receiving the Mark).
D. Satan is bound and unable to act - tossed into the bottomless
pit, chained, no longer a problem.
E. All the wicked are destroyed in chapter 19 and remain dead for
the entire 1000 years just as John states.
F. The wicked have no part in the first resurrection - just as
John states.
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9. The events marking the end of the millennium have not happened
and will not happen until 1000 years after Christ's return and
the righteous are raised from the dead.
A. Satan is set free
B. The wicked are raised - the second death has power over them.
C. Christ brings the Holy City down out of heaven.
D. The wicked gather against the New Jerusalem to make war
E. The wicked are judged and cast into the lake of Fire.
F. The earth is destroyed and the New Earth is created.
Revelation 21
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven
and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of
heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
------------------------
10. During the 1000 years we have the literal promise of John 14
and 1Thess 4 literally fulfilled - Christ went to prepare a place
for us - where His Father is, and there is where He takes us when
He takes us UP off the Earth. He Himself gathers us up into the
air - rather than landing on earth and ruling on earth.
John 14
1 Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also
in Me.
2 In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not
so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and
receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
4 And you know the way where I am going.'
5 Thomas said to Him, Lord, we do not know where You are going,
how do we know the way?'
6 Jesus said to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life;
no one comes to the Father but through Me.
28 You heard that I said to you, "I go away, and I will come to
you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to
the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
Notice -
A. He goes away (to another place - to the PLACE where His Father
is).
B. He goes THERE to prepare a place also for US.
c. He RETURNS for the purpose of taking us - and causing us to
finally be in that place WITH HIM that has been prepared.
So I do agree with all those Christians that would understand
John 14 to be the promise of preparing a place in heaven for us -
and then coming back at the return of Christ to take the saints
up to heaven - taking them right off the Earth - UP into the air
1Thess 4.
1Thess4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who
are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not
precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and
the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together
with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we
shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
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Dub
Those who uphold the premillenial theory depend primarily upon
their interpretation of the first six verses of the 20th chapter
of Revelation. If that concept were true, it is strange that it
is not mentioned elsewhere in the Bible, and in particular the
remaining books of the New Testament.
Bob
What is the "Concept" that you don't find - is it the concept
that 1000 years CAN exist or do exist? Clearly not. We have had
about 6000 years of history already - hard to believe that
scripture has no concept of 1000 years being a valid span of
time.
Is it the concept of Christ's 2nd coming - his return, being
followed by a 1000 years (or even followed by an infinite number
of years) that is "not found" in scripture. "And so shall we EVER
be with the Lord" shows us clearly that time does follow the
return of Christ.
Is it the Rev 20 concept of the saints reigning with Christ -
notice that 1Cor 6 tells us we will sit in a kind of future
judgment with Christ.
What exactly is the portion of the Rev 20 concept that you don't
find elsewhere?
Dub
Most of those who believe in premillenialism claim that the Son
of God will literally reign here upon earth for 1,000 years in an
earthly type kingdom.
Bob
True - but they were not teaching this (at least not with any
kind of acceptance) in the early 1800's - at that time the
popular belief was not that Christ would come before the 1000
years.
Dub
Others claim that all of the unrighteous will be literally slain
at the second coming of Christ. The Son of God will then
resurrect the righteous dead, and they along with the righteous
living will be taken by the Lord to heaven for a literal thousand
years. At the end of that period, return to earth to resurrect
the unrighteous and condemn them to their eternal doom.
Bob
That is also true - and I showed that teaching and the Bible
support for it in my previous affirmative. I had hoped you would
examine one/some of the Bible evidence shown to explicitly
endorse that soon return of Christ (rather than 1000 year delay)
in your response to my post.
Dub
None of these concepts are taught anywhere in either the Old
Testament or the New Testament. What few passages in which you
have used or more correctly misused do not teach anything to a
first cousin of the various premillenial theories.
Bob
Those are wonderful assertions of what you would like to prove -
and now the proof? The substance?
A compelling argument is composed of a very brief wonderful
assertion as you have made above - followed by convincing,
objective compelling proof. Evidence from scripture. IN this case
- showing how the scriptures provided in my previous post are not
making the case I claim.
Dub
Surely you have other favorite passages to present in this
discussion.
Bob
And that is also a true statement - I do have a number of others
- but I am hoping to get serious attention to at least the first
set of scriptures. I believe the most effective method is to
focus on the point raised - and show it to have a problem rather
then simply follow assertion with assertion.
So far I have discussed and quoted 1Cor 15, Rev 20, Rev 19,
1Thess 4 and 2Thess 1.
While this may be too many scriptures to review in a single
response - an in-depth response to some would be appreciated - to
the extent that you have given 1Thess4 some attention - I
appreciate that.
Dub
You refer to I Thessalonians the fourth chapter that discusses
the resurrection of the righteous dead and they along with the
righteous living rising in the air to meet Jesus Christ. Then
you attempt to harmonize that passage with your erroneous
interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6. First of all, in both I and
II Thessalonians the Apostle Paul was dealing with uncertainty
and apprehension within that congregation about the second coming
of Christ. Paul was reassuring them that the righteous dead
would not lose out in the eternal home in heaven. There was not
any need for Paul to discuss at that time those who had died
outside of Christ.
Bob
That argument is also made by the RCC when they speak of
sprinkling infants and why there is no mention of it in scripture
- they claim there was no need since nobody was concerned about
it being incorrect. It is an argument from the void of what the
text does not say.
You have simply exposed a serious flaw in your own view as 1Thess
4 points it out. Your view requires that Paul state "The dead
shall rise, and then those among them who are Christ's shall be
raised into the air - taken up to ever be with the Lord".
Obviously it is "problematic" for your view that INSTEAD of that
Paul says "the DEAD IN CHRIST shall rise". I can see why you
would spend the time to try and rework that - but the text is
explicitly problematic for your view - and frankly without the
effort you put into it to re-work it, all would obviously
conclude that instead of the wicked rising at Christ's return it
is "the Dead in CHRIST". And 1Cor 5 was also shown (in my
previous post) to match this - "Then those who are CHRISTS" at
His return. Combined with Rev 20 we have 3 very powerful and
explicit statements claiming that instead of ALL the wicked (over
whom the SECOND death has power) being raised first - in the
first resurrection. And it is obvious that the second death has
no power over the dead in Christ. The fit is perfect and
compelling.
And I also agree that the reason for Paul going into this issue
of the resurrection at Christ's soon return - and the fact that
those raised are explicitly "the DEAD IN CHRIST" is that the
saints were worried by the fact that some among them had died
before Christ's return. That takes nothing away from his clear
statement that it is 'the dead in Christ" that ARE RAISED at
Christ's return. Arguing that the wicked are also raised at that
time - is arguing from the void.
Dub
Secondly, one passage of scripture must not contradict other
scripture. After all, God is not the author of confusion (I Cor.
14:33). Jesus speaks of both the righteous and the unrighteous
rising from their graves simultaneously, not one thousand years
between their resurrection.
Bob
Again - there is no such text. We DO have scripture telling us
that BOTH the wheat and the tares grow together. But we have no
text telling us that the righteous and the wicked are raised
together or "simultaneously" or "at the same time". Instead we
have TWO resurrections mentioned AND numbered in Rev 20, and we
have TWO resurrections named in John 5.
The two are identified, named AND given in the following order -
FIRST - a "Resurrection of Life" - and SECOND - a "Resurrection
of damnation".
Dub
Again, hear the Words of the Son of God, "Marvel not at this: for
the hour is coming, in the which all that are in their graves
shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done
good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done
evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:28,29).
Bob
That order fits perfectly with what we find in 1Cor 15
"And those who are CHRISTs at His return" 1 Cor 15
"The dead in Christ shall rise FIRST" 1Thess 4
"This is the FIRST resurrection - over these the 2nd death has no
power" Rev 20.
"THE Resurrection of LIFE" John 5:28.
The ultimate test of this is found in Philippians 3. Paul is so
convinced that ALL at the first resurrection - the resurrection
that happens at Christ's return - are saved, that HE consider to
merely GET to the resurrection is SUFFICIENT - to ATTAIN to it,
to be counted worthy to participate in that ONE resurrection is
the goal.
For this reason Paul argues that we are to 'ATTAIN to that
RESURRECTION" Phil 3:11 because ALL at the first resurrection are
saved.
IF he had been using your idea - he could only have known that it
is NOTHING to be raised at that resurrection since BOTH the
WICKED and the righteous will be raised then - but rather - it is
to be raised AND THEN found to ATTAIN to being RISEN in the air.
Simply being worthy to be raised at that time SHOULD have counted
for nothing - but inserted of that - it counted for EVERYTHING.
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Dub
By your insisting that the events of Revelation, the 19th chapter
come before the 1,000 year period at Revelation 20:1-6 causes it
to conflict with I Thessalonians 4:13-17. Verses 16 and 17 of
this latter scriptural references states, "For the Lord himself
shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the
archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ
shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be
caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in
the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Note, the
scripture reveals that both the righteous dead and the saved who
were alive at His appearing will rise in the air to meet the
Lord. Not only that, but it says, "so shall we ever be with the
Lord."
Bob
So far - no contradiction. They both have the righteous raised at
Christ's return. And it is trivial to observe that our being
reunited with Christ is FOREVER. It John himself states that the
saints follow the lamb whereever He goes. That does not
contradict "and the saints will always be with the Lord" and can
not be made to contradict it except by the most strained efforts.
Saying that we can not possibly be WITH Christ in heaven and
later continue to be WITH Christ on earth - is hardly a
defensible position.
Dub
There is no indication in that passage that they will be in
heaven for a thousand years and then return to earth for the
final judgment of both the righteous and those lost. If you
attempt to interpret the 19th chapter, and verses 11-21 of
Revelation as being literal, then you have the Son of God on a
literal horse physically destroying every unsaved person
Bob
I don't mind observing the symbol of a sword - but as already
pointed out in Rev 19 there are enough symbols there to clearly
identify Christ and that he is returning coming out of heaven
itself and confronting wicked humanity at war with God.
And yes - destroying ALL the wicked - raising the righteous and
taking all the righteous to be WITH HIM forever. To that place
"he has prepare for us" John 14.
You have yet to find a contradiction between 1Thess 4 and Rev 20.
All you show is that 1Thess 4 provides detail, John 14 provides
detail, Rev 20 provides detail that are all combined to give us
that one glorious view of the return of Christ.
Dub
It is my prayer that you will open your mind to these truths.
Bob
And everyone said - amen.
I would add that I greatly appreciate your Christian spirit in
studying this important topic and look forward to an in-depth
review of the scriptures provided.
Sincerely
Bob Strom