Strom/Mowery Debate on Premillenialism

 
 
 Proposition: 
 The thousand years of Rev 20 are real literal years that start 
 with the literal return of Christ and the real resurrection of 
 the righteous as described in 1Thess 4 and Rev 20.
 
 Affirmed:  Bob Strom
 Deny:   Dub Mowery
 
 Dub
 I believe you to be a sincere person who genuinely believes your 
 position to be true.  Hopefully, you recognize me as also honest 
 and sincere in my convictions on the subject in which we are 
 discussing at this time.  I hold no ill will toward you, and 
 therefore refuse to knowingly belittle you in our exchange.
 
 Bob
 Evidence of Christian graces - the fruit of the Spirit, and 
 certainly a welcomed form of debate.
 
 I did not write the SDA book of doctrines nor did you write them 
 for the Church of Christ - I am perfectly willing to accept 
 whatever scripture states - even though it be found to oppose 
 some belief I held prior to the study - I challenge you to do the 
 same. For our Saviour is "the way the TRUTH and the life" - to 
 follow truth is to follow Christ.
 
 Let's be objective - notice that I will try to zero in on the 
 exact quote from you - where I see you to be in error, for the 
 sake of clarity and precise communication. Feel free to do the 
 same as it keeps us narrowed down to only those points of most 
 interest.
 
 While some may argue that we are each closed minded and very 
 unlikely to be convinced by any Biblical evidence refuting our 
 position - I believe there is some spark of hope. Certainly we 
 each see ourselves as open-minded. (Of course this is always the 
 case with each side of a debate and as we have seen on this list 
 - each side remains unconvinced in all cases - so clearly our 
 perception is flawed).
 
 Even so - all is not lost - I am using the exchange as a way to 
 compile a more precise and exact appeal to scripture that 
 directly and specifically addresses the points you and I both 
 raise on the subject. The more clearly we see how the weight of 
 scripture bears on the topic - the easier for someone to 
 eventually be persuaded by it.
 
 In this affirmative I further clarify events during the 
 millennium - as your questions last time indicated some confusion 
 on your part as to exactly how the premillenial view of scripture 
 works out for SDAs. 
 -----------------------------------------------------------------
 
 The Promise of the 2nd Coming of Christ:
 
 I believe the literal promise of John 14 - Christ went to where 
 His Father is - to prepare a place there for us. And He purpose 
 in coming again is to take us up into the air (1Thess 4) to be 
 with Him in that place PREPARED for us - that where He is there 
 we may be also.
 
 During the 1000 years we have the literal promise of John 14 and 
 1Thess 4 literally fulfilled - Christ went to prepare a place for 
 us - where His Father is, and there is where He takes us when He 
 takes us UP off the Earth.  He Himself gathers us up into the air 
 - rather than landing on earth and ruling on earth.
 
 John 14
 1 Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also 
 in Me.
 2 In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not 
 so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and 
 receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
 4 And you know the way where I am going.
 5 Thomas said to Him, ""Lord, we do not know where You are going, 
 how do we know the way?'
 6 Jesus said to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life; 
 no one comes to the Father but through Me.
 
 28 You heard that I said to you, "I go away, and I will come to 
 you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to 
 the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
 Notice -
 A. He goes away (to another place - to the PLACE where His Father 
 is).
 B. He goes THERE to PREPARE a place also FOR US.
 C. He RETURNS for the purpose of taking us - and causing us to 
 finally be in that place WITH HIM that has been PREPARED.
 
 So I do agree with all those Christians that would understand 
 John 14 to be the promise of preparing a place in heaven for us - 
 and then coming back at the return of Christ to take the saints 
 up to heaven - taking them right off the Earth - UP into the air 
 1Thess 4.
 
 1Thess4
 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who 
 are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not 
 precede those who have fallen asleep.
 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, 
 with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and 
 the dead in Christ will rise first.
 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together 
 with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we 
 shall always be with the Lord.
 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
 
 No ruling in Jerusalem over a dead planet for 1000 years. 
 ------------------------------------------------------------
 
 Dub
 Bob, surely you would admit that the book of Revelation uses 
 symbols as figurative language.
 
 Bob
 Undeniably true - I agree 100%.
 
 But the key question begging to be proven rather than assumed - 
 is whether we are free to ignore all facts provided in a book 
 that ALSO has symbols employed for teaching. 
 1. Is it true that whenever we find a symbol used in scripture we 
 are free to ignore everything in the chapter or letter or book of 
 scripture where this is found - in the sense of actual literal 
 facts?
 
 A. It is obvious that Revelation employs symbols in it's 
 narrative - Can we assume this means it is lacking in explicit 
 fact? Does it provide license for us to simply "make-stuff-up as 
 it pleases us" or to ignore any fact from a book that happened to 
 use symbols?  The answer is obvious.
 
 By choosing to believe John and to accept symbols only when it is 
 clear that a literal view can not possibly work we get the most 
 accurate understanding of the book. In fact even the 
 interpretation for the symbols (as John provides the keys to the 
 symbols in the book of Revelation) is found by believing the 
 details of the book relating to how those symbols are to be 
 understood.
 
 Rev 17:15 When John tells us that the symbol of water - stands 
 for many languages/nations/people - we can believe it.
 Rev 17:9-20 The 7 heads are seven kings/kingdoms - we can believe 
 it.
 Rev 17:12 - The 10 horns represent 10 kings who have not received 
 a kingdom yet (at the time of the book) - we can believe it.
 Rev 1:7 When John tells us Christ is coming in the clouds and 
 every eye shall see him - we can believe it.
 Rev 1:18 When John tells us that Jesus was dead and is now alive 
 forevermore - we can believe it. 
 
 B.  Literal truths found in the book of Revelation.
 
 In Rev 19 John tells us that the wicked are destroyed by Christ 
 at His return - we can believe it.
 In Rev 20 John tells us that the righteous are resurrected at the 
 return of Christ -
 In Rev 21 John tells us that God actually does judges the wicked 
 and throws them into the lake of fire after the millennium we can 
 believe it.
 
 For us to read the chapter of Rev 19 and 20 describing the return 
 of Christ, the resurrection of the righteous, destruction of the 
 wicked and the 1000 year interval between the resurrection of the 
 righteous and the resurrection of the wicked - and then deny it, 
 inserting our own made-up views to it, requires that we come to 
 it with pre-conceived bias. It requires that we inject into the 
 text our own bias rather than looking for the text itself to 
 serve as it's interpreter. 
 ------------------------------------------------------
 
 Dub 
 1. The first resurrection mentioned by the Apostle John at 
 Revelation  20:4-6 is not referring to the resurrection of all 
 the saints at the  second coming of Christ.  The inspired Word 
 limits those of this first resurrection to souls that had been 
 beheaded.  There is no mention of bodies, but the souls of saints 
 who were martyrs.  Not all faithful
 
 Bob
 Clearly we do have a resurrection of the righteous ("saints") 
 here - even if you cut the text back to only refer to the those 
 who were martyred for their faith. And so "WE" are there to some 
 extent even by your reasoning which imposes a limit on the text.
 
 There is in fact only one resurrection of the righteous future to 
 John's day - and that occurs at the return of Christ.
 
 1Cor 15
 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made 
 alive.
 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that 
 THOSE WHO ARE CHRIST's at His coming,
 
 Once we find that this first "RESURRECTION" is that of the 
 righteous - (over whom the second death has no power) - those who 
 want "another" resurrection of the righteous "have a problem" - 
 for only those raised at Christ's return will be priests and 
 reign with Christ - according to the text.
 
 As for limiting the "first resurrection" to just the martyrs - 
 Let's read the text carefully and objectively.
 
 Rev 20
 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was 
 given to them.  And I saw the souls of those
 a. -  who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus 
 and because of the word of God
 b. -  and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and 
 had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand;
 
 and THEY came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand 
 years.
 
 Clearly - the restriction you "need" to impose on the text - 
 simply does not exist.
 
 And what of everyone else? - "the rest" - over whom the second 
 death DOES have power - and who are doomed to rise in the SECOND 
 resurrection. (that which follows #1 will always be the second 
 one - number TWO).
 
 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand 
 years were completed.
 
 Note the emphasis John gives to those who participate in the 
 FIRST resurrection by CONTRAST to the second.
 
 5...This is the first resurrection.
 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first 
 resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they 
 will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for 
 a thousand years.
 
 Notice that it is those identified in the FIRST resurrection that 
 are explicitly said to be priests and to reign with Christ - by 
 contrast to those raised in the second resurrection. 
 -----------------------------------------------------------
 
 Dub
 There is no mention of bodies, but the souls of saints who were 
 martyrs.
 2.. It does not mention a bodily resurrection.
 
 Bob
 A. When John says "resurrection" does he MEAN resurrection - as 
 in "the resurrection" at the return of Christ of the righteous? 
 Or does the word "soul" mean that bodies can't possibly be 
 involved?.  Peter tells us that when we see the term for souls - 
 bodies are very much appropriate and not excluded by definition.
 
 NKJV 1Peter 3
 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the 
 unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the 
 flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 
 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,     
 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine 
 longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being 
 prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved 
 through water. 
 
 Peter makes the point that the PEOPLE going into the ark were in 
 fact - eight souls. No justification is made for arguing that 
 when we see the term translated as "soul" the PERSON's physical 
 body must be excluded.
 
 Some may speculate that the souls of those who live for Christ 
 and die for their  faith in God - are "dead" in some sense. But 
 certainly they are not "dead" from the standpoint of faith in 
 Christ - So the "coming to LIFE" of these saints who  already 
 died for their faith in Christ at the hands of the beast - for 
 not receiving the mark of the beast,  saints who died for their 
 testimony of Jesus (as described in Rev 12) -- is in fact the 
 REAL resurrection of the righteous "dead IN Christ".
 
 Notice that when the promise is given of  "The DEAD being raised 
 to life" - there is no bifurcation supposing that dead souls are 
 not really including the REAL resurrection including the body.
 
 Notice the unqualified references to "the dead" and the 
 resurrection of the dead - does not suppose that the body or the 
 soul must be excluded - rather (just as we saw in 1Peter 3 with 
 the word - SOUL) it is the PERSON that is referenced - entirely.
 
 1Cor 15
 12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the 
 dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of 
 the dead?
 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ 
 has been raised; ...
 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been 
 raised; ...
 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits 
 of those who are asleep.
 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the 
 resurrection of the dead. ...
 32 ... If the dead are not raised, LET US EAT AND DRINK, FOR 
 TOMORROW WE DIE. ...
 35 But someone will say, ""How are the dead raised? And with what 
 kind of body do they come?''
 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it 
 dies;
 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to 
 be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
 3...
 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, 
 and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in 
 glory.
 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a 
 perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; ....
 50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit 
 the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the 
 imperishable.
 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we 
 will all be changed,
 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; 
 for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised 
 imperishable, and we will be changed.
 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this 
 mortal must put on immortality. 
 -----------------------------------------------------------------
 
 Dub
 1. It (Rev 20) does not mention the second coming of Christ.
 
 Bob
 4. There are no chapter divisions in the original text - Rev 19 
 20 and 21 all flow together in the document. It is incredibly 
 difficult to miss the return of Christ in those chapters. Let's 
 review.
 
 2. All the NT authors direct our attention to the return of 
 Christ as the moment of the resurrection of the righteous "dead 
 IN Christ". Rev 19 is describing the return of Christ.  Just as 
 Rev 20 describes the two resurrections following.
 
 A. Christ is identified in Rev 19 based on John's work in John 1 
 - regarding the "Word" and the "Lamb" of God.
 B. Christ's coming to earth in wrath - FROM HEAVEN - agrees with 
 NT Author's view of the 2nd coming.
 C. The marriage of the Lamb - ALL the saints are key to that event      
 D. Flesh of all the wicked - ALL MEN - eaten by animals, killed 
 by Christ.
 E. This event is associated with the resurrection of the 
 righteous - the "first resurrection"  and all those in it - 
 become Priests unto God and reign with Christ they are those over 
 whom the second resurrection does not apply , and the second 
 death has no power.
 F. The wicked will rise again at the second resurrection after 
 the 1000 years for the second death.  
 -----------------------------------------------------------------
 
 A. Christ is identified in Rev 19 based on John's work in John 1 
 - "the Word". Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in 
 blood, and His name is called The Word of God. John 1:1 In the 
 beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word 
 was God.
 
 "King of Kings and Lord of Lord" - the Lamb = Christ Rev 19 16 
 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "" KING 
 OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.'' 
 John 17:14 These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb 
 will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of 
 kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and 
 faithful.
 John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, 
 Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
 John 1:36 and he looked at Jesus as He walked, and said, Behold, 
 the Lamb of God!
 
 B. Christ's coming to earth in wrath - FROM HEAVEN - agrees with 
 NT Author's view of the 2nd coming.  - 2Thess 1
 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction 
 those who afflict you,
 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well 
 when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty 
 angels in flaming fire,
 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to 
 those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from 
 the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and 
 to be marveled at among all who have believed for our testimony 
 to you was believed.
 
 Rev 19:
 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who 
 sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He 
 judges and wages war. ...
 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, 
 white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may 
 strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of 
 iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, 
 the Almighty. 
 
 C. The marriage of the Lamb - ALL the saints are key to that 
 event Rev 19
 7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the 
 marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself 
 ready.
 8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and 
 clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
 9 Then he said to me, Write, Blessed are those who are invited to 
 the marriage supper of the Lamb.  And he said to me, These are 
 true words of God.
 
 D. Flesh of all the wicked - ALL MEN - eaten by animals, killed 
 by Christ. Rev 19
 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with 
 a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, 
 Come, assemble for the great supper of God,
 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of 
 commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses 
 and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free 
 men and slaves, and small and great.''
 19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their 
 armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and 
 against His army.
 20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who 
 performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those 
 who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped 
 his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire 
 which burns with brimstone.
 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the 
 mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled 
 with their flesh 
 -----------------------------------------------------------------
 
 Dub
 In particular, the following things that are essential for 
 premillenialism to be true, are not found in the 20th chapter of 
 Revelation.  They are:
 
 1. It does not mention the second coming of Christ.
 -3. It does not mention a reign on earth.
 -4. It does not mention a literal throne of David.
 -5. It does not mention Jerusalem of Palestine (or Israel).
 6. It does not mention us.??
 -7. It does not mention Christ on earth.
 
 Bob
 Although I would agree that such ideas are common among many 
 other premillenial groups some of the above are not in my view - 
 see the opening statement about the 2nd coming in this post - it 
 is the biblical view that SDAs promote and have done so long 
 before premillenialism returned to "popularity" in modern 
 Christianity. I have placed a minus sign by those points I don't 
 agree to. 
 
 Sincerely,
 Bob Strom