Strom/Mowery Debate on Premillenialism

 
 
 Proposition: 
 The thousand years of Rev 20 are real literal years that start 
 with the literal return of Christ and the real resurrection of 
 the righteous as described in 1Thess 4 and Rev 20.
 
 Affirmed:  Bob Strom
 Deny:   Dub Mowery
 
 1. John tells us the return of Christ is followed by the 
 resurrection (the  "FIRST resurrection") of the saints - we can 
 believe him.
 
 Paul agrees with John - and in 1Thess 4 we see that the return of 
 Christ leads directly to the event the resurrection of the "Dead 
 in Christ". We see the same illustration provided in 1Cor 15.
 
 1Thess 4:
 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God 
 will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who 
 are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not 
 precede those who have fallen asleep. 
 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, 
 with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and 
 the dead in Christ will rise first.
 -----------------------------------------------------------------
 
 2. John tells us that this event marks the beginning of the 1000 
 years, we can believe it.
 
 Rev 20
 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was 
 given to them.  And I saw the souls of those who had been 
 beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the 
 word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his 
 image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on  
 their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a 
 thousand years.
 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand 
 years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first 
 resurrection; over  these the second death has no power, but they 
 will be priests of God and of  Christ and will reign with Him for 
 a thousand years.
 7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released 
 from his  prison,
 ...
 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before 
 the throne,  and books were opened; and another book was opened, 
 which is the book of  life; and the dead were judged from the 
 things which were written in the  books, according to their 
 deeds.
 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and 
 Hades gave  up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, 
 every one of them  according to their deeds.
 
 John helps us to understand that he is telling the literal truth 
 - with  the 1000 years in that we find no other case in the NT   
 (certainly not in the book of revelation) where x-years does not  
 actually mean x-years.
 
 Not only are the 1000 years true - and literal and correct, but 
 the  conditions described by John are also fact. 
 A. The righteous dead are raised to life. 
 B. The wicked we see destroyed in chapter 19 of Revelation are 
 indeed dead - during the events of Rev 20
 C. The wicked really have no part in the first resurrection (just 
 as John states in Rev 20). They remain dead until they are raised 
 to life at the end of the 1000 years -  the second resurrection.
 
 Rev 19:
 19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their 
 armies assembled  to make war against Him who sat on the horse 
 and against His army.
 20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who 
 performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those 
 who had received the  mark of the beast and those who worshiped 
 his image; these two were thrown  alive into the lake of fire 
 which burns with brimstone.
 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the 
 mouth of Him  who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled 
 with their flesh
 -----------------------------------------------------------------
 
 3.  We have no example of n-years being used to identify an 
 unspecified length of time in the NT. At best we have the   
 simple explanation that one REAL year is REALLY in God's eyes - 
 not too short a period of time to accomplish His purpose nor is a 
 thousand REAL years REALLY too long a period of time to wait for 
 his purposes to unfold.
 
 2Peter 3
 3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come 
 with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
 4 and saying, Where is the promise of His coming? Forever since 
 the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the 
 beginning of  creation.
 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by 
 the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was 
 formed out of water and by water,
 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being 
 flooded with water.
 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being 
 reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction 
 of ungodly men.
 
 Peter observes that the complaint is that TOO MUCH TIME has 
 transpired and the PROMISE of God does not seem to be coming to 
 pass.
 
 Peter's response is three part - 
 #1. God has already shown his willingness to LITERALL destroy all  
 mankind by LITERALLY destroying the world with a flood - already.
 #2. God does not consider the time - TOO Long a period to wait 
 for the unfolding of His purposes NOT because God does not 
 understand time, but because He is capable of waiting for what 
 seems to us like a long time - and consider it - NOT too long a 
 time to wait. 
 
 2Pet 3:
 8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that 
 with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand 
 years like one day.
 
 The point of that comparison is useless if the 1000 years of time 
 is NOT allowed to be 1000 years. If we simply translate years as 
 unknown-time either long or short then the entire example given 
 by Peter is corrupted.   For then Peter's point that "unknown 
 possibly-short time "- is not too long a time for God to wait for 
 His purposes to unfold - becomes a useless example.
 
 #3. And Peter's third point is that God is literally willing to 
 wait  for such a literally long period of time - in His literal 
 desire to literally work for the salvation of all - not willing 
 for any to perish.
 2Pet 3:
 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, 
 but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for 
 all to come to repentance.
 
 4. Examples of the Literal truth of the book of Revelation. By 
 choosing to believe John and to accept symbols only when it is 
 clear that a literal view can not possibly work we get the most 
 accurate understanding of the book. And even then - ONLY using 
 the interpretation for the symbols as John provides the keys to 
 the symbols in the book of Revelation or as Daniel provides them 
 using the same type of apocalyptic writing).
 
 John tells us in the book of Revelation that Christ actually did 
 rise from the dead and actually does have the spiritual keys of 
 hell and death. John tells us that the wicked are  destroyed by 
 Christ at His return.  That turns out to be true as well. John 
 tells us that the righteous are resurrected at the return of 
 Christ - turns out to be true. John tells us that God actually 
 does judges the wicked and throws them into the lake of fire.
 
 For us to read the chapter of Rev 19 and 20 describing the return 
 of Christ, the resurrection of the righteous, destruction of the 
 wicked and the 1000 year interval between the resurrection of the  
 righteous and the resurrection of the wicked - and then deny it, 
 inserting our own made-up views to it, requires that we come  to 
 it with pre-conceived bias. It requires that we inject into the 
 text our own bias rather than looking for the text itself to  
 serve as it's interpreter.
 
 Hopefully this short proposal is enough to indicate my position 
 on this - and will be enough to uncover any objections Dub may 
 have to this understanding of scripture.
 
 Sincerely,
 Bob Strom