STROM/PUCKETT DEBATE ON SABBATH
Jim Puckett's Second Affirmative
Proposition:
Resolved, that the keeping of the weekly Sabbath is not scripturally
binding on Christians today.
Affirm: James Puckett
Deny: Bob Strom
Second Affirmative:
Bob has problems with two of my definitions:
My definition:
5. Christians: by "Christians," I mean those whom the Lord adds
to His church as in: (Acts 2:47 KJV) "Praising God, and having
favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church
daily such as should be saved."
Bob adds:
By church we include the "church in the wilderness" - Israel.
By Christian we mean those who are grafted INTO that spot from
which SOME in Israel fell Rom 11.
My definition:
6. today: by "today," I mean the Christian dispensation, in which
we live, in other words all time between the first Pentecost
after the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the end of the world.
Bob adds:
Partially true - since Heb 4 states that "TODAY" was ALSO a fact
in Ps 95:7 - the days of King David and going forward it would
ALSO INCLUDE the Christian dispensation as Heb 4 notes..
Result: The exclusionary approach in Jim's definition section
fails to find support from Psalms 95 quoted in Heb 4.
Jim
Bob is apparently unaware that the definitions here only define
the terms as we are using them in this debate. They are not
necessarily all-inclusive for all uses of the terms. They are to
make sure that both sides understand how they are being used. He
says my definitions are exclusionary. Actually, my definition of
today is more inclusive than what is needful for this debate.
What we are debating is that today, January, 2001, whether or not
Christians are obligated to keep the sabbath. The debate is not
concerned with centuries ago, although that time period has come
up in the discussion. I'll stick with my definitions for use in
this debate, since he has given no reason why they do not
suffice.
I. In my first affirmative, I made the following points in
proving my case:
The keeping of the weekly Sabbath is not scripturally binding on
Christians today because:
A. in the Bible record God did not relate the seventh day to man
as a memorial or a day to be kept at the creation, when He sanctified and blessed it.
B. the first time in the Bible record that anyone was commanded
to rest on the seventh day was in Exodus 12 when the children of
Israel were told to rest on it as they prepared for their flight
from Egypt.
C. the first time in the Bible record that anyone was commanded
to observe the seventh day of the week as the sabbath is in Exod.
16:23-26.
D. no people other than the children of Israel were ever
commanded to keep it.
E. Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses and took it out of the way so
that men living today are no longer amenable to it.
F. people living today are amenable to the gospel of Christ, not
the law of Moses.
I wonder how many people noticed that I miscounted the number of
points at the end of the first Affirmative speech? I said I had
presented four points, instead of the six I actually presented.
Bob apparently didn't, since he said nothing about it.
I should mention here that Bob included some responses from my
Negative speeches in the first debate, which is totally
inappropriate since this is a new debate. I will basically ignore
those so as to keep this debate fresh as it should be.
II. Did the Negative successfully refute these six points of the Affirmative case?
A. The keeping of the weekly Sabbath is not scripturally binding
on Christians today because in the Bible record God did not
relate the seventh day to man as a memorial or a day to be kept
at the creation, when He sanctified and blessed it.
Unfortunately, Bob chose to misquote me here by leaving off the
qualifier "at this time." I had said: "Thus God made the seventh
day holy. He set it apart from the other six days. What did this
mean for man? We are told nothing to relate this to man at this
time."
He made me seem to say that God never related the seventh day to
man, which is neither true, nor what I said.
Bob's response:
God tells us what this Gen 2 FACT means for mankind - in Exodus
20:11 and again we see it affirmed in Mark 2:27 - it was MADE for
mankind, mankind was not MADE for the Holy Seventh-day that "IS"
Sabbath.
Jim
Bob thinks that when God gave the sabbath commandment to the
children of Israel in Exod. 20:11, it was retroactive to the
creation and included all mankind. He has not explained why God
would wait until he commanded the sabbath of the Hebrews before
telling us that it was a command all of the time since creation.
This is an obvious self-serving misuse of scripture. Also, he
says that Jesus affirms his argument.
(Mark 2:27-28 KJV) "And he said unto them, The sabbath was made
for man, and not man for the sabbath:
{28} Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath."
Bob says Jesus means that the sabbath was made for mankind to
keep, but he ignores that man was not created for the sabbath. If
man were created for the sabbath, then he would be liable to keep
it always.
The true meaning is revealed to us by the context in which Jesus
made the statement. The Pharisees had accused Jesus' disciples of
violating the sabbath, and Jesus was showing that they had not
violated the sabbath. By His use of David's eating the showbread
He showed that the sabbath was not meant to control or subjugate
man, but to benefit him. Bob is assuming here that when Jesus
said the sabbath was made for man, that he applied its keeping to
all mankind. However, Jesus was saying nothing about who was
required to keep the sabbath in this episode, as is shown by
verse 28.
The sabbath was never commanded of anyone in the Bible besides
the Hebrews. I showed in my first Affirmative where the law of
Moses was given to Israel specifically. Bob cannot find any
scripture to show it was given to anyone else. Otherwise, he
would have blessed us by giving it to us. That is why he tries to
make Mark 2:27 do this for him. It doesn't do it. This is a
misuse of the scripture.
***Bob has not successfully refuted my first point, therefore,
the keeping of the weekly Sabbath is not scripturally binding on
Christians today because in the Bible record God did not relate
the seventh day to man as a memorial or a day to be kept at the
creation, when He sanctified and blessed it.***
B. The keeping of the weekly Sabbath is not scripturally binding
on Christians today because the first time in the Bible record
that anyone was commanded to rest on the seventh day was in
Exodus 12 when the children of Israel were told to rest on it as
they prepared for their flight from Egypt.
Bob said:
Jim assumes that God (who declares that failure to disntinguish
between the sacred and the profane Ezek 22:26) FAILED and forced
early mankind to sin by actively hiding from mankind the TRUTH we
find IN Gen 2 - the Holy 7th Day.
Jim
I don't know where Bob got this idea, but it is totally false. He
says I assume that God forced early mankind to sin. That is an
outrageous accusation!
***Bob did not successfully refute this point, therefore, the
keeping of the weekly Sabbath is not scripturally binding on
Christians today because the first time in the Bible record that
anyone was commanded to rest on the seventh day was in Exodus 12
when the children of Israel were told to rest on it as they
prepared for their flight from Egypt.***
C. The keeping of the weekly Sabbath is not scripturally binding
on Christians today because the first time in the Bible record
that anyone was commanded to observe the seventh day of the week
as the sabbath is in Exod. 16:23-26.
(Exo 16:23 KJV) "And he said unto them, This is that which the
LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto
the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye
will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be
kept until the morning."
After showing the first occurrence of the Hebrew word for
"sabbath" is in this verse, I said: "This is the first time
anyone was commanded to observe the seventh day of the week as
"the sabbath," or "a sabbath unto the LORD." This is an
important point to remember!" As proof of this, I quoted the
following:
(Deu 5:1-3 KJV) "And Moses called all Israel, and said unto
them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in
your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
{2} The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
{3} The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with
us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day."
This scripture proves that God did not make the covenant, of
which the law of Moses was part, with their fathers, but only
with the children of Israel who were present at that time.
Bob replied:
Notice the content of the NATIONAL covenent at Horeb
Exodus 19:4 " You yourselves have seen what I did to the
Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you
to Myself.
5 "Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My
covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the
peoples, for all the earth is Mine;
6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.'
These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.''
This NATIONAL text - regarding a KINGDOM of PRIESTS and HOLY
NATION was not present reality for the patriarchal families that
existed PRE Sinai.
Jim
Of course it wasn't present reality. God was just now preparing
to give it to them along with the sabbath commandment. The law of
Moses, including the ten commandments, was part of this covenant
that God was preparing to make with them. A covenant is a
contract between two people or entities. This covenant was
between God and the children of Israel. There are conditions in a
contract. The conditions of this covenant were spelled out in the
law of Moses. As God said, if they would obey His voice and keep
His covenant, then they would be His own possession. But,
Jeremiah tells us they didn't keep the covenant:
(Jer 31:31-32 KJV) "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that
I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the
house of Judah:
{32} Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the
land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an
husband unto them, saith the LORD:"
How did Israel break the covenant that God was making here? They
violated the law of Moses. They did not keep the ten
commandments. They practiced idolatry and God therefore accused
them of adultery, spiritual adultery. They were not faithful to
their husband, God, but they worshipped idols. I repeat, Israel
broke the covenant by violating the first commandment of the ten
commandments.
So, when Moses said the covenant was not made with their fathers,
he was saying the ten commandments were not given to their
fathers. Therefore, the command to keep the sabbath, as part of
the ten commandments, was not given to the fathers of the Jews.
The ten commandments were not given until Sinai.
Bob said:
But it is NOT TRUE that they were FREE to worship false gods,
take God's name in vain, make idols, dishonor parents, murder,
break the Creator's Holy Seventh-day. Already pointed out in the
discussion so far - not yet responded to by Jim.
Jim
Nobody said nor believes that those who lived before Sinai were
not under some law from God. Nobody said nor believes that people
were free to worship false gods without penalty. God never
spelled out for us what laws were in effect for those people.
However, He did spell out the prohibition against murder right
after the flood, though.
(Gen 9:5,6 KJV) "And surely your blood of your lives will I
require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the
hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require
the life of man.
{6} Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed:
for in the image of God made he man.
That is a law against murder that was not part of the ten
commandments.
God has never left man without some law to which man was
responsible. Adam was commanded to not eat of the tree of
knowledge of good and evil. That was part of the law he was
responsible to keep. So, saying that the law of Moses, or even
only the ten commandments, was the only law men could have been
living under is ridiculous.
***Bob did not successfully refute this point, therefore, the
keeping of the weekly Sabbath is not scripturally binding on
Christians today because the first time in the Bible record that
anyone was commanded to observe the seventh day of the week as
the sabbath is in Exod. 16:23-26.***
D. The keeping of the weekly Sabbath is not scripturally binding
on Christians today because no people other than the children of
Israel were ever commanded to keep it
This would be an easy point for Bob to refute if God had
commanded anyone other than the Israelites to keep the sabbath.
However, I'm sure the readers failed to find any scripture that
Bob quoted in which is found a command for anyone other than the
children of Israel to keep the sabbath.
In introducing the ten commandments, God gives them a description
of those He is addressing:
(Exo 20:1-2 KJV) "And God spake all these words, saying,
{2} I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the
land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."
Whom did God bring out of bondage in Egypt besides the children
of Israel? Absolutely no one. They are the people to whom God
addressed the ten commandments and the rest of the law of Moses.
In my first affirmative, I gave a number of scriptures showing
the law of Moses was given to Israel. I won't quote them again to
save space, but they include: Ezek. 20:12,20; Lev. 19:2,3; Lev.
23:2,3;Deut. 5:12-15; Neh. 9:13,14. Notice especially the
following:
(Deu 5:15 KJV) "And remember that thou wast a servant in the
land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence
through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the
LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day."
Here, God tells them that the reason He commanded them to keep
the sabbath day, was because they were servants in Egypt and He
had brought them out by a mighty hand. So, even God did not
always relate the sabbath command to His resting after the
creation, as Bob is prone to do. He relates it to delivering
Israel from slavery in Egypt.
Now, let's address the verses Bob has repeatedly mentioned that
he believes supports his case and refutes this point, Isaiah 56
and 66. Do they really teach that the Gentiles must keep the
sabbath, as Bob says?
Bob says:
Wrong again. As already pointed out the (and you have yet to
respond) - the Sabbath was clearly applicable to Gentiles (Isaiah
56) and even is stated to apply to all mankind continuing through
to the new earth (Isaiah 66).
Jim
Due to space limitations I have to depend upon the reader to read
some lengthy passages of scripture.
Isa 56:1-8: In the first place, Isaiah here records no command
for anyone to keep the sabbath. Rather, he is blessing those that
do keep the sabbath and refrains from doing evil He is making a
promise to the eunuchs that "keep my sabbaths, and choose the
things that please me, and take hold of my covenant." He makes
promise to the sons of the stranger that "join themselves to the
LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his
servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it,
and taketh hold of my covenant;" We know there were proselytes to
Judaism among the Gentiles. Obviously, proselytes were obligated
to keep the sabbath, as well as the whole law of Moses. So how
does this passage apply to people today and in the future?
Judaism is no longer a viable religion.
What is he promising them? "{7} Even them will I bring to my holy
mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt
offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar;
for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all
people." What is h
IV. Further Arguments.
A. The keeping of the weekly sabbath is not scripturally binding
on Christians today, because the apostles did not bind it on
Gentiles when given the perfect opportunity to do so.
When the church at Antioch of Syria was troubled by Jews who
insisted on the Gentiles being circumcised, they sent Paul and
Barnabas and others to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders to
resolve the problem. At Jerusalem some of the Pharisees also
said it was needful that they should be circumcised and they
should keep the law of Moses.
(Acts 15:5 KJV) "But there rose up certain of the sect of the
Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to
circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
So, after much disputing, Peter reminded them that the Jews could
not bear the yoke of the law of Moses:
(Acts 15:10 KJV) "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke
upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we
were able to bear?"
So, James pronounced his decision:
(Acts 15:19-20 KJV) "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble
not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
{20} But that we write unto them, that they abstain from
pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things
strangled, and from blood."
And then the apostles wrote letters for Paul and Barnabas to take
to the Gentiles as follows:
(Acts 15:23-29 KJV) "And they wrote letters by them after this
manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto
the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and
Cilicia:
{24} Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from
us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying,
Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such
commandment:
{25} It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to
send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
{26} Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of
our Lord Jesus Christ.
{27} We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell
you the same things by mouth.
{28} For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon
you no greater burden than these necessary things;
{29} That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood,
and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye
keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."
Here, the apostles had the perfect opportunity to tell the
Gentiles that they must keep the ten commandments, if that were
the case. However, they did not tell them to do this. They did
not even tell them that they must keep the sabbath. Their failure
to tell the Gentiles to keep the sabbath proves my case.that
Christians today are not bound to keep the sabbath.
***Therefore, the keeping of the weekly sabbath is not
scripturally binding on Christians today, because the apostles
did not bind the sabbath on Gentiles when given the perfect
opportunity to do so.***
B. The keeping of the weekly sabbath is not scripturally binding
on Christians today, because the church assembled on the first
day of the week rather than keeping the sabbath.
(Acts 20:6-7 KJV) "And we sailed away from Philippi after the
days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five
days; where we abode seven days.
{7} And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came
together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart
on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."
Here we find the apostle Paul and his company waited in Troas
seven days until the first day of the week, whereupon they
assembled with the local disciples to partake of the Lord's
supper, and Paul preached unto them. They waited until a time
that the disciples would be gathered together so Paul could
preach to them. They did not do that on the sabbath, but on the
first day of the week.
(1 Cor 16:1-2 KJV) "Now concerning the collection for the
saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so
do ye.
{2} Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by
him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no
gatherings when I come."
Paul tells the Corinthians he wants them to do as he told the
Galatians to do. That was that they should lay by in store on the
first day of the week their gifts for the needy saints in
Jerusalem, so that when he came to pick it up, it wouldn't have
to be gathered then. It would already be collected. Why the
first day of the week and not the sabbath? Because they assembled
on the first day of the week and not on the sabbath.
In addition to these Biblical examples that the early church
assembled on the first day of the week rather than on the
sabbath, we have historical accounts by the "church fathers" of
the same. While these are not inspired accounts, they do
corroborate what the scriptures tell us and thus contribute to
our proof.
THE FIRST EPISTLE OF CLEMENT TO THE CORINTHIANS
Chapter LXVII, page 186. (1st century)
"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly,
because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change
in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our
Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified
on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after
that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to
His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we
have submitted to you also for your consideration."
THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE MAGNESIANS.
CHAP. IX.--LET US LIVE WITH CHRIST, page 62.
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of
things[7] have come to the possession of a new[8] hope, no longer
observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance[10] of the
Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and
by His death--whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained
faith,[12] and therefore endure, that we may be found the
disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master--how shall we be able
to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves
in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He
whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the
dead.[16]
THE SECOND APOLOGY OF JUSTIN FOR THE CHRISTIANS ADDRESSED TO THE
ROMAN SENATE
CHAP. X.--TRYPHO BLAMES THE CHRISTIANS FOR THIS ALONE--THE NON-
OBSERVANCE OF THE LAW, pages 199,200.
And when they ceased, I again addressed them thus:--
"Is there any other matter, my friends, in which we are blamed,
than this, that we live not after the law, and are not
circumcised in the flesh as your forefathers were, and do not
observe sabbaths as you do? Are our lives and customs also
slandered among you? And I ask this: have you also believed
concerning us, that we eat men; and that after the feast, having
extinguished the lights, we engage in promiscuous concubinage? Or
do you condemn us in this alone, that we adhere to such tenets,
and believe in an opinion, untrue, as you think?"
So, we see that even secular history helps prove that the early
church did not assemble on the sabbath, but on the first day of
the week.
I should make a statement to eliminate confusion. The early
church did not keep the first day of the week as a day of rest
like the sabbath. It was not a substitute for the sabbath. It has
its own significance and importance, since God created the
heavens and the earth, light, Day , and Night on the first day of
the week. Christ arose from the dead on the first day of the
week. The church was established and Peter preached the first
recorded gospel sermon on the first day of the week. John was in
the Spirit on the Lord's day when he received the visions of the
Revelation.
***Therefore, the keeping of the weekly sabbath is not
scripturally binding on Christians today, because the early
church did not keep the sabbath, but assembled on the first day
of the week.***
C. The keeping of the weekly sabbath is not scripturally binding
on Christians today, because there is no command in the New
Testament for Christians to keep the sabbath after the church was
established on the first Pentecost after the resurrection of
Christ.
Jesus gave to the church the only memorial that He wanted us to
observe when He instituted the Lord's Supper on the evening of
His betrayal by Judas Iscariot. In this memorial we are to
remember his death until He comes again when we partake of the
bread and the fruit of the vine, the cup.
***Therefore, the keeping of the weekly sabbath is not
scripturally binding on Christians today, because there is no
command in the New Testament for Christians to keep the
sabbath.***
D. The keeping of the weekly sabbath is not scripturally binding
on Christians today, because there is a sabbath for Christians
after they have completed their work.
In Hebrews 4:1-11, the writer talks about the promised rest that
Israel looked for, which the original Hebrews lost due to lack of
faith. He proceeds to discuss this, even mentioning the seventh
day rest in verse 4. He goes on, even quoting David in verse 7.
(Psa 95:7-11 KJV) "For he is our God; and we are the people of
His pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear
his voice,
{8} Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the
day of temptation in the wilderness:
{9} When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
{10} Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and
said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have
not known my ways:
{11} Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter
into my rest."
Those who disobeyed did not get to enter God's rest, or Canaan
land. Then he gets to an additional rest in verse 8.
(Heb 4:8-11 KJV) "For if Jesus had given them rest, then would
he not afterward have spoken of another day.
{9} There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
{10} For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased
from his own works, as God did from his.
{11} Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any
man fall after the same example of unbelief."
Notice in verse 9 that there is a rest remaining for the people
of God. But it is not the weekly sabbath as some would have us
believe. The weekly sabbath was kept all during the life of the
Hebrew people. But this "rest that remains" is a one-time rest,
not one that recurs every week. This rest is only entered into
when a person has ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Notice the comparison with God's rest after the creation on the
seventh day. God completed the work of creation, and then He
rested. We, Christians, must complete our work of life, before we
can enter into the "rest that remains." Therefore, the "rest
that remains" is the promised rest of eternal life in heaven,
which the faithful inherit after this life, after we have
completed our life work. This is the Christian's "rest that
remains." This is the Christian's sabbath.
So, we see that the seven day sabbath was only commanded of the
children of Israel. The Christian's sabbath is his rest in heaven
after he completes his work, as God rested after He completed His
work of creation.
*** Therefore, the keeping of the weekly sabbath is not
scripturally binding on Christians today, because the Christian's
sabbath is rest in heaven after they have completed their work in
this life.***
V. Conclusion.
The keeping of the weekly sabbath is not scripturally binding on
Christians today, because:
A. the apostles did not bind the sabbath on Gentiles when given
the perfect opportunity to do so.
B. the early church did not keep the sabbath, but assembled on
the first day of the week.
C. there is no command in the New Testament for Christians to
keep the sabbath.
D. the Christian's sabbath is rest in heaven aftter they have
completed their work in this life
E. in the Bible record God did not relate the seventh day to man
as a memorial or a day to be kept at the creation, when He
sanctified and blessed it.
F. in the Bible record no one was commanded to rest on the
seventh day until Exodus 12 when the children of Israel were told
to rest on it as they prepared for their flight from Egypt.
G. in the Bible record no one was commanded to observe the
seventh day of the week as the sabbath until Exod. 16:23-26.
H. in the Bible record no people other than the children of
Israel were ever commanded to keep it.
I. Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses and took it out of the way so
that men living today are no longer amenable to it.
J. people living today are amenable to the gospel of Christ, not
the law of Moses.
Therefore, here are ten solid reasons why the keeping of the weekly sabbath is not scripturally binding on Christians today. The first of these nine reasons is in itself enough to prove the Affirmative's case. The Affirmative has proved its case over and over.
I repeat:
The keeping of the weekly sabbath is not scripturally binding on Christians today, because the apostles did not bind it on Gentiles when given the perfect opportunity to do so.