STROM/PUCKETT DEBATE ON SABBATH
Bob Strom's First Rebuttal
Proposition:
Resolved, that the keeping of the weekly Sabbath is not scripturally
binding on Christians today.
Affirm: James Puckett
Deny: Bob Strom
----------------------------------------------------------
While my third affirmative DID consist of a SHORT affirmative
statement single post - followed by 3 DETAILED responses to Jim's
second Rebuttal-the result was (as Jim noted) - "long" so the
bulk of the affirmative was simply ignored in Jim's 3rd rebuttal.
I suppose we COULD engage in debate by just ignoring the points
made by the other side and hope our own points will stand as if
devastating objections had not been raised.
Nothing of substance would come of that approach - though it
would have huge entertainment value for some - no doubt.
Jim has already noted that the problem with a detailed response
to the opposing points - is that it results in a long response.
He mentioned that these detailed repsonses to his own questions
were "diversions" - but I rather think they are directly
applicable.
While "long" may be a problem - "thorough" is the only way to get
actual substance from a debate and avoid unnanswered questions
which gets us repeating ourselves a lot and no progress on the
point.
The following list of unnanswered points in my affirmative #3
will be instructive in making the case for paying more attention
to the details of the dialogue.
I will follow this with a detailed rebuttal to Jim's recent
post. Though some of it will simply refer back to my last
affirmative and the fact that he is repeating the first part of
some point already addressed in my 3rd affirmative and still
waiting for an answer from Jim.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
1. Jim argues that God's Holy Seventh day (that IS Sabbath Exodus
20)is not mentioned AFTER it is established as the HOLY day in
Gen 2.
You can't argue abolishing Sabbath every time you find a stretch
of Bible books/chapters that do not mention Sabbath (Joshua -
thru 1Kings).
No Answer from Jim yet
2. Genesis (A book of origins) does not detail "law" for US
though it tells us law, commandments, statutes existed (Gen 26:5).
(NO ANSWER from Jim yet)
3. Christ said Sabbath was MADE for mankind - Mankind was not
MADE for the Holy Seventh-day Sabbath. This means we have no
chance of success in limiting it to the Jews.
Also NO chance of limitting Sabbath as something of God-not-God-
the-Son Since Christ IS LORD of the Sabbath. Christ affirms this
with HIS disciples in the NT so no denying that Christ spoke to
His own church about it.
No answer from Jim yet.
4. Christ endorsed the PRE-Cross commandments (before nailing
anything to the cross). So yes Christ commanded HIS church to
keep HIS commandments. Christ IS God. God's Word IS Christ's Word
Jim hopes that some Christ-only-commandments were introduced pre-
cross and hopes that these are what Christ refers to - assuming
His disciples know that what is the fathers is NOT to be
considered Christ's
- no matter what Christ said in John 17:10 about ALL that the
Father has being Christs.
5. Christ FULFILLED (as in obeyed perfectly) all prescriptive
laws and He fulfilled the prediction of all predictive laws
(Sabbath feastivals). Prescriptive Laws (Love God, Love your
Neighbor, no adultery) do not END when ONE person obeys them.
Sabbath is a prescriptive law regarding CREATION - not a
predictive one.
(No answer from Jim yet)
6. Galations: The ONE Gospel (both OT and NT) never conflicted
with the Sabbath or the LAW of God. Law defines sin, the Gospel
writes the law on our heart. We obey Sabbath - "from the heart"
not merely externally - We establish the Law through faith.
"(No answer)"
7. Post-Cross saints are grafted into the vine at the same place
from which PRE-Cross Sabbath-keeping Jews fell. No difference.
God seeks to RESTORE Jews BACK to the place from which they fell.
Salvation and church issues are therefore the SAME between the
two as they are in the SAME place.
(No Answer from Jim yet)
8. Colossians 2 - detailed look at vs 13 and 14.
Christ nailed our 'certificate of debt' (paying what we OWE -
death) to the cross - He did not nail HIS commandments to the
cross. The Law of God STILL exists condemning all men as under
sin's penalty of death.
"(No Answer)"
9. Marriage and the Holy Seventh-day Sabbath were taken by
mankind out of Eden. They do not threaten or damage the Gospel -
but are in harmony with it. no need to abolish EITHER marriage
OR the Holy Seventh-day.
(No Answer)
10. The 7th day Holy Day - can only be KEPT Holy by following the
Gen 2 example of rest - God ALREADY established the EXAMPLE in
Gen 2.
No response - Jim simply muses that IF God wanted to He could
have chosen ANOTHER example other than the one HE ALREADY CHOSE
in Gen 2.
---------------------
Jim
The word "gospel" does not appear in the O.T. Therefore, I cannot
say that the Gospel of Christ applied to those living before the
death of Jesus on the cross,
Bob
Jim argues that sabbath keeping saint in the OT may have kept it
since they did not have the Gospel which is somehow anti-Sabbath.
NT authors differ with Jim here.
Gal 3:8 "The Gospel was preached to Abraham"
1Cor 10:2-4 "drank from the SAME Spiritual ROCK which ..WAS
CHRIST"
Heb 4:2 2 We have had the GOOD NEWS preached to us, just as they
also
No Answer from Jim yet.
----------------------
Jim argues that the Law of God OT is not the Law of Christ NT in
some mysterious way. As if God is not Christ or as if Moses was
not doing what Paul was doing - writing God's Word. He claims
James is
Jim
He was talking about the law of Christ. He was contrasting it
with the law of Moses.
Bob
James mentions the 10 commandment unit written on tablets of
stone as "The Law of Liberty" and then quotes it. Following with
"SO live and act as those who are to be JUDGED by the LAW of
liberty". Christ quoted it, Paul quoted it, James quoted it.
The unit stands. Jim hopes these might be duplicates in the NT
that just so happen to look like the original - I have challenged
Jim to show such a confused system's documented list in the NT -
No Answer yet
-------------------------------------------------
Jim states that no forgiveness is possible in the OT or NT pre-
Cross. (And so denies the ONE solution ONE Gospel of Gal 1:6)
While it is true that animal blood never did/will forgive sins -
REAL forgivenes WAS available via the blood of Christ (the ONLY
WAY) pre-cross and so God's Word differs with Jim here.
Isaiah 6:7 "Your sin IS forgiven"
Num 14:19 where God had "forgiven Israel"
Matt 9:2 "Your sins ARE forgiven" Luke 7:48, 5:20-23
Ps 32:5 David confesses that God really DID forgive.
Heb 11:5 Enoch taken up by God without dying
2Kings 2:1 Elijah taken up to Heaven by God pre-Cross
Jim calls this "making the Gospel retroactive" and thinks the OT
is a gospel-less time no matter what the text says as we see in
his statement below.
Jim
However, you cannot make the gospel retroactive, as those living
before the cross of Christ were not amenable to the gospel of
Christ
Bob
No Answer to the actual scriptures listed yet
--------------------------------------------
Jim can not imagine God's "laws commmandments and statutes" in
the time before Sinai IF they are not detailed in the book of
origins (Genesis) - so Jim guesses God's Holy Seventh day must
not exist. Jim argues from silence here - arguing from the void.
God's Word contradics Jim here.
Gen 26:5 God's Laws, commandments, statutes WERE known to those
in Genesis.
Gen 2:1-4 The Seventh-day WAS Holy EVEN in Genesis - the ONE
Holy Day MADE for mankind
Silence regarding Sabbath from Joshua through 1Kings does not
void the Holy Day.
Jim says he is confused as to what was there before Sinai and
hopes the facts of the Holy Seventh-day stated clearly in Gen 2
became clouded after Gen 2 and on through Exodus 15.
But this would make God the author of sin - since God considered
it a sin to FAIL to distinguish between the sacred (sanctified
HOLY) and the common ordinary use. Ezek 22:26.
---------------------------
Jim ignores scripture stating that the 7th-day sabbath was MADE
Holy at creation in Gen 2 and urges that IF we do not see a
Sabbath service detailed in Genesis - then God is wrong about
making it a Holy Day for MANKIND - when it was MADE a Holy Day.
Jim
If you will provide Book, Chapter, and Verse to show that any of
them kept the sabbath, then I will retract my statement
Bob
He ignores the fact that "thou shalt not murder" comes (in
Exodus) AFTER God charges Cain with murder. And many other such
examples of details regarding LAW that Moses did not spell out
FOR the READER until Exodus - but were clearly FACT in Genesis.
No answer
----------------------------------------
Jim agrees with scripture - that the 10 commandments are a unique
identifiable UNIT of LAW
Jim
Obviously, since they were written by the finger of God on two
tables of stone, they are a unique identifiable unit.
Bob
Jim also agreed that the 10 commandments define sin for all
mankind.
Jim
Yes, these ten commandments defined sin, But adds that
everything Moses wrote defines sin.
Not so for all mankind. Romans 7 shows how the 10 commandment
unit defines sin by quoting from it - no other section of
Leviticus is quoted. IT is not a sin for mankind not peform the
work of a Levite.
God's law defines sin and defines the penalty as being death -
all are shut up under sin. His Law remains in effect.
Paul references the UNIT of 10 - saying the 5th commandment is
the FIRST with a promise (Eph 6:1-2) and applicable today. Thus
the UNIT of 10 REMAIN in the NT as we SEE in Eph 6.
No Answer from Jim yet.
--------------------------
Jim admits God made the 7th day Holy at creation for mankind -
but claims God forgot to tell man about it. He thinks God gave it
to "himself" for God to "keep holy" or possibly just forgot to do
anything at all after resting. God failed to allow man to
distinguish between the sacred and the common-ordinary Ezek 22:26
-> sin.
You claim that God would be keeping the Holy Seventh day a secret
memorial if all He does is explicitly tell us that it was MADE
Holy and BLESSED as the 7th day of Creation week - and that God
rested.
God Himself states that He MADE it Holy THEN at that time and
that the only way to KEEP it (observe it) as it deserves - is to
follow the Gen 2 example of Rest ALREADY provided.
Another example of the micro-view we get in the book of origins
(clean animals in Gen 7) without telling us what they are until
Leviticus. We do not have an exhaustive account in Gen so arguing
from the void that God was inconsistent and forgot to give
mankind the day made for mankind - holds no water. Rather it
makes God the author of sin - the sin of NOT distinguishing
between the sacred and the common Ez 22:26.
No Answer from Jim yet.
------------------------
Jim argues that ONLY Jews were told to KEEP the Holy Seventh day
Holy. 'Sabbath was made for Jews not Jews for Sabbath' in Jim's
revised version by saying that Jews are the only ones God gave
the Sabbath to.
Christ differs with Jim here. Sabbath was made for mankind -
Mark 2:27. (Jim agreed to this at one time). Mankind was not MADE
(at Creation) for Sabbath. BOTH were made at Creation - the
context IS creation in Mark 2:27
Jim
Man needed the rest from his labors to recuperate. That is why
he says the sabbath was made for man.}
Bob
This is one of the few times Jim admits the global Mark 2:27
where it is MANKIND that needs rest - not just jews. The fact
that this is devastating to Jim's insistence that it is only Jews
is yet to be addressed.
-------------------------------
Is 56:6 ""Also the FOREIGNERS who ...every one who keeps from
profaning THE Sabbath
No answer from Jim yet.
-------------------------------------
God's Sabbath day IS the 7th-day of Creation and IS Holy AT
creation (not deferred Holy until Sinai) and MADE for mankind AND
commanded EVEN of foreigners and EVEN kept in the New Earth by
'all mankind'
Is 66:23 "ALL MANKIND to come bow before Him from Sabbath to
Sabbath"
No Answer from Jim yet. Just his statement that he is confused
about issues in chapter 66 BEFORE the mention of the NEW EARTH.
-------------------
Jim argues that the NT church may have met a time or two that was
not Sabbath
Jim
We have evidence that the early church met on Sunday
Bob
We have "evidence" that at times they met every day (Acts 2:46)
We have "evidence" that one time they met for a farewell meeting
(Acts 20:7)
We have evidence that some Christians (those in Corinth)
individually set aside savings - on the first day of each week to
be donated at a later point in time. (1Cor 16:2)
Jim argues that these texts show they would not meet on Sabbath -
Jim "Met on Sunday rather than the sabbath."
No such comparison/exchange/replacement is found in any of the
texts he provided. We have NO evidence that these incidentals in
any way create a replacment for the Creator's Holy Seventh day
(from which we get our 7 day week.)
No Answer from Jim YET.
----------------
Jim denies the Sabbath commandment language in Rev 14 'Worship
him who made the who made the heaven and the earth and sea and
springs of waters.''
Exodus 20:11 "" the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea
and all that is in them,
Jim hopes that NT writers will not appeal to this OT fact about
the Creator by quoting this section of the Sabbath commandment
and yet we have it clearly in Rev 14:7 and in Acts 4:24 and
14:15.
No Answer
----------------
The language of Exodus 20 is in historical terms - telling us
that what was already known already done in the past on the 7th
day MADE it Sabbath - it IS the Sabbath day - the SAME day as the
7th day of Creation.
Jim claims that God is incorrect in stating that the facts of Gen
2 make the 7th day a Holy Day - to be kept Holy, observed as God
gave it - by resting. I pointed out that this directly
contradicts God's OWN assertion in Exodus 20 that the Gen 2 FACT
ARE sufficient to establish the Holy Seventh-day.
No Answer from Jim yet.
-----------------
Jim claims that the law of Moses is addressed only to Jews but
Paul's letter to the Colossians should be accept as scripture for
more than just Colossian Christians.
2Tim 3:16 ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND is
profitable for doctrine.
Scripture IS addressed to ALL no matter what the local audience.
2Tim 3:16 Col 1:1-3 are key proofs.
No answer yet
---------------------
Jim claims the Hebrew people were NOT the church and so their
Sabbath keeping does not apply.
Yet they WERE the church in the wilderness - EVEN then
Rom 11 states that WE are in the SAME position as the early
Hebrews - from which THEY fell. Rom 11:19-24
" they ALL drank from the SAME SPIRITUAL rock... CHRIST" 1Cor
10:4
No Answer yet.
------------------
Jim
Jesus came to fulfill it, not to destroy it. Matt. 5:17. When
He fulfilled it, He completed it.
Bob
perfectly fulfilled the Law of Moses Deut 6:5 "Love God with all
your heart" fulfilled the Law of Moses Lev 19:18 "Love your
neighbor as yourself"
These are prescriptive laws - like the speedlimit and Sabbath.
Keeping them once does not make them void.
Jim's answer - Christ fulfilled the law saying we are "to love
God"
Deut 6:5
- then nailed it to the cross.
- then brought it back to life again
as NOT -God in origin so we would
not die for obeying it.
---------------------
Jim argues that Christ nailed His own Word, His own Law, His own
commandments INCLUDING His own Creation-week Holy Seventh-day to
His cross and took it out of the way.
Jim
The ten commandments were nailed to the cross with the rest of
the law
Bob
I showed conclusively that instead of Being God's Word,
Scripture, His Commandments that was "taken away" - it was "the
certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us" as recorded
in the books - from which we are to be judged. He paid our debt
INSTEAD of abolishing the law that DECREES sin is violation of
the law, he took away the debt that we owe - as decreed in the
books of heaven.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon
it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before
the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened,
which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the
things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and
Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged,
every one of them according to their deeds.
Col 2:13When you were dead in your transgressions and the
uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with
Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Christ took the "stroke due us" the DEBT of DEATH (Rom 6) was
PAID, NAILED
The LAW is STILL the BASIS for knowing what is SIN (Rom 7:6-11)
Our faith STILL establishes the Law Rom 3:31 Gal 3 {22} But the
scripture hath concluded all under sin, -- STILL
No Answer
-------------------------------------------------------
Jim looked to Galations 3 to get the law of God done away with -
hoping that it might say "but when Christ came and died the law
went away". INSTEAD the text actually told us that
The gospel promise came BEFORE the LAW of Sinai - Both existed at
the same time.
The law leads us to Christ - showing us our need of a savior and
when FAITH comes - we are free.
Gal 3:{23} But before faith came, we were kept under the law,
shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
{24} Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto
Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
{25} But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a
schoolmaster.
No Answer
------------------------------------------
Jim
Jesus nor his apostles never commanded his church to keep the
sabbath.
Bob
"If you love me Keep My Commandments" John 14:15 BEFORE the
cross - BEFORE anything was nailed to it (And Jim presumes
Christ's 10 commandments were nailed to the cross - but clearly
not before the cross).
Some answer - hoping that Christ made up more commandments
before the Cross
------------------------
Jim says he just "can't find Sabbath in the NT" - even though it
is the ONLY week day said to have week after week gatherings in
the NT.
Heb 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
Jim
5. Where in the New Testament do we find any example of the
church assembling on the sabbath?
Bob
Sabbath is the ONLY week day were we find explicit description of
week after week assembly in the NT - for ANY reason.
Acts 13:42 As Paul and Barnabas were going out, the people kept
begging that these things might be spoken to them the next
Sabbath.
44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the
word of the Lord.
Acts 17:2 And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and
for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
Acts 18:4 And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and
trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.
It appeared that Jim was hoping all these gentiles (nearly the
whole city) are just Jews asking for Sabbath services.
While the list of unnanswered points is prodigous - I am hoping
that it will serve in future points to carry us beyond the
stopping points recorded above.
I will now post the detail section of my first rebuttal to Jim's
first affirmative -- Taking each of Jim's points and responding
to it carefully.
Hopefully this approach will not continue to be labeled a
diversion from the subject of the Sabbath.
First Negative - part 1
Definition of terms:
1. qadash 6942 "Keep Holy" Exodus 20:8
"Sanctified" Gen 2:3.
God "MADE it a Holy Day" (qadash) Ex 20:11
2. "Holy Day" means that God's makes a day Holy in order to
identify it, set it apart and is done FOR the purpose of KEEPING
it Holy. I.E. it is not a pointless fact. God declares that it
is sin not to distinguish between the Holy and the Common
everyday Ezek 22:26
3. Christ - 2nd member of the Trinity - ONE with the Father
and ALL things that are the Father's ARE Christ's John 17:10
NO ONE (preCross) comes to the Father APART except THROUGH Christ
(John 14:6) Is the creator at creation - making HIS Holy
Seventh-day.
4. Gospel - There is ONLY ONE (Gal 1:6)
- it was preached PRE Cross to Abraham (Gal 3:7-8)
- it is the good news preached ALSO to us (Heb 4:1-2)
- DOES NOT replace the LAW nor did LAW EVER replace the Gospel
5. OT Saints - Heb 11, Rom 11 are shown to be people of faith,
acceptable to God taken to heaven without seeing death (in some
cases) - preached the Gospel of Good News - just as we have been
preached it (Heb 4:1-2)
-----------------------------
Jim
5. Christians: by "Christians," I mean those whom the Lord adds
to His church as in: (Acts 2:47 KJV) "Praising God, and having
favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church
daily such as should be saved."
Bob
By church we include the "church in the wilderness" - Israel.
By Christian we mean those who are grafted INTO that spot from
which SOME in Israel fell Rom 11.
Jim
6. today: by "today," I mean the Christian dispensation, in which
we live, in other words all time between the first Pentecost
after the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the end of the world.
Bob
Partially true - since Heb 4 states that "TODAY" was ALSO a fact
in Ps 95:7 - the days of King David and going forward it would
ALSO INCLUDE the Christian dispensation as Heb 4 notes..
Result: The exclusionary approach in Jim's definition section
fails to find support from Psalms 95 quoted in Heb 4.
Jim
The root of the Hebrew word for "rested" above is "shabath"
(H7673), which is a primitive root meaning "to repose, i.e.
desist from exertion."
Thus God made the seventh day holy. He set it apart from the
other six days.
What did this mean FOR MAN? We are told nothing to relate this to
man
Bob
God tells us what this Gen 2 FACT means for mankind - in Exodus
20:11 and again we see it affirmed in Mark 2:27 - it was MADE for
mankind, mankind was not MADE for the Holy Seventh-day that "IS"
Sabbath.
Jim agrees with this at some point.
Jim's second rebuttal -
Jim
(Mark 2:27-28 KJV) "And he said unto them, The sabbath was
MADE FOR Man, and not man (MADE) for the sabbath:
{28} Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath."
Man needed the rest from his labors to recuperate.
That is why he says the sabbath was MADE FOR MAN.
Bob
The incongruity of Jim's argument stands without remedy.
Jim assumes that God (who declares that failure to disntinguish
between the sacred and the profane Ezek 22:26) FAILED and forced
early mankind to sin by actively hiding from mankind the TRUTH we
find IN Gen 2 - the Holy 7th Day.
This problem has already been pointed out several times.
Jim
What did this mean for man?
Bob
God answer this explicitly in Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath
day, to keep it holy.
...
11 For in six days the LORD MADE the heavens and the
earth, the sea and all that is in them, and RESTED on the
seventh day; therefore the LORD BLESSED THE sabbath
day and MADE IT holy.
-----------------------------
Jim
II. Who was commanded to keep the sabbath?
Bob
Christ said - it was MANKIND - the Sabbath was made for mankind -
MANKIND was not MADE for the Sabbath Mark 2:27.
Since we know that God did not create Adam a JEW - NOR did he
MAKE Jews at Sinai from the dust of the earth. BOTH the MAKING of
the Holy Seventh Day AND the MAKING of mankind refer to CREATION
week. Exodus 20:11 states that in the blessing of the 7th day the
SABBATH was blessed. Past tense already fact.
God himself says he MADE IT (Sabbath) HOLY at creation in vs 11
of Exodus 20 speaking of CREATION week "therefore the LORD
BLESSED the SABBATH DAY and MADE IT holy."
Jim
(Exo 16:23-26 KJV) "This is the first time anyone was commanded
to observe the seventh day of the week
Bob
At best - Jim can prove that the ADDED name "Sabbath" given to
the Holy Seventh-day does not appear in scripture until Exodus
16. No more restriction may be observed than that from the text
without arguing out of the void of what it does not say.
At some point Jim agrees that nothing prevents the commandments
known to mankind in Genesis from being those we find in Exodus.
Jim
these Gen 26:5 laws, commandments, and statutes may have been
similar or even almost identical to those he gave in the law of
Moses
Bob
It is interesting that even BEFORE the 10 commandments are
written on stone - THIS ONE (the one Jim wants to abolish in the
NT) is EXPECTED in chapter 16. IT is also the one Paul refers to
in Heb 4 (THERE REMAINS therefore a SABBATH REST for the people
of God).
Since God required that mankind MUST distinguish between the
sacred and the common - and even Jim admits that the 7th day was
MADE a Holy Day AT creation
Jim rebuttal 03 -- Jim<>
Jim agrees that the Creator's Holy Seventh Day is OF Christ - an
act of Christ Himself --
Jim
Since Genesis says that God did this, we know that Christ, the
Word, was here (at creation) called God.
Bob
Obviously God would not author sin - by forcing Adam to commit
the SIN of NOT distinguishing between the sacred and the
common ordinary day (Ezek 22:26) - Obviously God did NOT hide his
Commandments Gen 26:5 from Man.
Jim also agrees that NOTHING prevents us from concluding that
these Commandments ARE the commandments GOD REVEALS in His Word
Jim
these Gen 26:5 laws, commandments, and statutes may have been
similar or even (almost?) identical to those he gave in the law
of Moses
Bob
We can only observe that the LAW WAS KNOWN Gen 26:5 but not
spelled out FOR THE READER in the book of origins AS it was to be
later done in the book of the law. Yet Genesis CLEARLY shows it's
existence and even TELLS us of the Holy Seventh Day MADE for
mankind (according to Christ).
----------------------
Jim
We have no command for anyone to keep the sabbath until it was
given to the children of Israel at Mt. Sinai.
Bob
This fact in itself does not prove it wasn't given to their
ancestors
Indeed - the absence of the NAME SABBATH PRE-Sinai as it was
later added to the Holy Seventh-day does not show that the Holy
Day was IGNORED. Rather - Christ himself states that when the
DAY was MADE Holy IT was MADE for mankind Mark 2:27. Exodus 20
itself says SABBATH was MADE Holy at creation week in vs 11.
Clearly Mark 2:27 and Exodus 20:11 have proven to be highly
destructive to Jim's argument so far.
--------------------------
It is true that the NATIONAL covenant with Israel - was NOT given
to those ancestors that were not yet a NATION. The NATIONAL
covenant was NOT made with their ancestors but the LAW and
COMMANDMENTS, statutes WERE Gen 26:5 - those which do not involve
NATIONAL obligations.
Jim writes
Moses tells us that it wasn't given to them.
(Deu 5:1-3 KJV) "And Moses called all Israel, and said unto
them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in
your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do
them. {2} The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. {3}
The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us,
even us, who are all of us here alive this day."
Bob
Notice the content of the NATIONAL covenent at Horeb
Exodus 19:4 " You yourselves have seen what I did to the
Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you
to Myself.
5 "Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My
covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the
peoples, for all the earth is Mine;
6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.'
These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.''
This NATIONAL text - regarding a KINGDOM of PRIESTS and HOLY
NATION was not present reality for the patriarchal families that
existed PRE Sinai.
But it is NOT TRUE that they were FREE to worship false gods,
take God's name in vain, make idols, dishonor parents, murder,
break the Creator's Holy Seventh-day. Already pointed out in the
discussion so far - not yet responded to by Jim.
-------------------------------
Jim
(Exo 20:1-2 KJV) "And God spake all these words, saying, {2} I
am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of
Egypt, out of the house of bondage."
... So, these commandments were not given to us, since most of us
are Gentiles.
Bob
Wrong again. As already pointed out the (and you have yet to
respond) - the Sabbath was clearly applicable to Gentiles (Isaiah
56) and even is stated to apply to all mankind continuing through
to the new earth (Isaiah 66).
You have already agreed that mankind needs Sabbath because
mankind (not merely Jews) needs rest.
Jim
(Mark 2:27-28 KJV)
Man needed the rest from his labors to recuperate.
That is why he says the sabbath was made for man.
-----------------------------
(Exo 20:8-11 KJV) "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Man needed the rest from his labors to recuperate.
That is why he says the sabbath was made for man.
It wasn't made to have something that man must comply with,
but because it was a needed benefit for man. God rested after
His labors, so man also need a rest.
Bob
Man needed to comply with the Sabbath commmandment as God states
- but it is FOR mankinds OWN good - Adam NEEDED it.
{11} For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and
all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the
LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."
Jim
He told the Hebrews that God blessed the seventh day (SABBATH)
and hallowed (sanctified) it (MADE IT HOLY) because He had rested
on the seventh day after He had created the heaven and earth and
sea, and all they contain.
Bob
True
This was the same reason He gave it to them as the sabbath.
Actually he says that in BLESSING IT - it was really blessing THE
SABBATH - they are the SAME thing "Therefore the Lord BLESSED the
SABBATH day and SANCTIFIED/MADE it Holy" - the SAME word used in
Gen 2.
Instead of arguing a NEW day - SABBATH that is NOW holy - God
argues the OLD day - the SEVENTH-day WAS Sabbath - in BLESSING it
and MAKING IT Holy - Sabbath is autmatically blessed - they are
ONE and the SAME thing as we see in vs 11 - they are used
interchangably.
And of course - SANCTIFYING them would require something more
than a MEANINGLESS gesture - just as Sanctifying the Holy
Seventh-day in Gen 2 MADE it Holy (According to Gen 2 and Exodus
20). It requires man to ACT - to make a disctinction BETWEEN the
sacred/holy and the common Ezek 22:26 ELSE man sins.
-----------------------------------
There is no question that Israel is a part of mankind and so they
are included when God gives the Holy Seventh day to mankind
through Adam - Sabbath was MADE for mankind (Adam) not MANKIND
(Adam) for (MADE for) the Sabbath. They therefore are obligated
to obey Christ the Creator as any other member of mankind would
be - BUT THEY ALSO have added reasons - being part of that NATION
covenant - for Christ will come TO HIS OWN (but of course HIS OWN
would receive Him not). They have a number of reasons compelling
them to OBEY this command.
(Exo 31:13-17 KJV) "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel,
saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign
between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know
that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
{14} Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto
you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for
whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from
among his people.
{15} Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath
of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the
sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
{16} Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to
observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual
covenant.
{17} It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever:
for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the
seventh day he rested, and was refreshed."
Jim
God told the children of Israel here that He gave them his
sabbaths as a sign between God and Israel that they might know He
is the LORD that "doth sanctify" them.
Bob
Jim "assumes" that IF Sabbath is of importance to God's People
Israel - it can not (by definition) mean anything to anyone else.
As if their worship of the One True God - makes God meaningless
to the rest of mankind.
(Ezek 20:12 KJV) "Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a
sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD
that sanctify them."
(Ezek 20:20 KJV) "And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a
sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your
God."
Jim
God told Moses that the sabbath "is a sign between me and the
children of Israel throughout their generations." It was not
given to any people other than the children of Israel, but was
given to the children of Israel for a specific purpose and not as
a general command to all mankind!
Bob
Jim makes this mistake by continuing to ignore the scritpure
refuting his position in both OT and NT. (as already pointed out
numerous times with no reply).
Isaiah 56 shows us CLEARLY that sabbath was intended for
FOREIGNERS - Isaiah 66 shows us that IT WILL be honored by ALL
MANKIND in the New Earth when ALL MANKIND are obedient to the One
True God. Christ states that MANKIND was not MADE for Sabbath -
but Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND (Mark 2:27) - speaking of
CREATION week when they were BOTH MADE.
Since these texts most directly refute Jim's position here and
they go unnanswered, I have no choice but to repeat the stopping
point where Jim has let this part of his argument rest.
Jim
Notice also the penalty for anyone who did not keep it was death.
Therefore, those who keep it today as binding will have to put to
death anyone of their number who fails to keep it.
Bob
This is also true of adultery - thankfully Jim does not really
believe this line of reasoning or we would find him compelled to
either stone adulterers or else insist that all Christians commit
adultery so they will not have to stone people that commit the
offense. Since Jim has no serious interest on this point - I will
let this one rest.'
-----------------------------
(Exod 35:2-3 KJV) "Six days shall work be done, but on the
seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest
to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
{3} Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the
sabbath day."
Jim
There are additional scriptures that show the sabbath was given
to Israel and no other nation.
Bob
Wrong - there are scriptures showing that the sabbath was
applicable to Israel BUT NOT any that show that other nations
were exempt - same with adultery and worshipping other gods. In
fact Isaiah 56 explicitly tells us of FOREIGNERS who choose the
TRUE God by honoring Christ's Creation-Week Holy Seventh-day
Sabbath.
(Lev 19:2-3 KJV) "Speak unto all the congregation of the
children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I
the LORD your God am holy.
{3} Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep
my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God."
(Lev 23:3 KJV) "Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day
is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work
therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings."
These texts show that Israel was to honor Christ's Holy Seventh-
day - but does not tell us ONLY Israel need be concerned with
Christ's Seventh day. (That it was an act of Christ is agreed to
by Jim at some point)
Jim Writes concerning Christ at Creation
Since Genesis says that God did this, we know that Christ,
the Word, was here (at creation) called God.
Bob
(Deu 5:12-15 KJV) "Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the
LORD thy God hath commanded thee. ...
{15} And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt,
and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a
mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy
God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day."
Jim
Notice, in particular, verse 15: "therefore the LORD thy God
commanded thee to keep the sabbath day." He gives as the reason
for giving them the sabbath that He brought them out of Egyptian
bondage. This is in addition to what He said in Exod. 20:11 that
He made the heaven and earth in six days and rested on the
seventh.
Bob
The words that God spoke down Sinai in Exodus 20 were written on
stone by the time 40 years later when Duet 5 was penned and
ADDITIONAL reasons were added that were added incentive for
Israel BEYOND anything foreigners might consider.
Jim
no people other than the children of Israel were ever commanded
to keep it.***
Bob
Wrong again - As already noted
Isaiah 56:6 ""Also the FOREIGNERS who join themselves to the
LORD, To minister to Him, and to love the name of the LORD,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning THE
Sabbath
---------------------------------------------
Jim
(Mat 5:17,18 KJV) "Think not that I am come to destroy the law,
or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
{18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one
jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be
fulfilled.
Here Jesus tells us he didn't come to destroy the law, or the
prophets. He came to fulfil them, and the law will not be
diminished until all is fulfilled. What did he mean that he came
to fulfill the law? The Greek word for "fulfil" here is "pleroo"
(G4137). ..., satisfy, fully carry out, supply
Strong's definition shows us that it means to make replete, to
cram, finish, perfect, or, as we might say: to fill full. It does
not mean to observe or keep.
Bob
Interesting that to "satisfy the law" means to cram - to FINISH
it and explicitly NOT to "OBSERVE or KEEP" it according to it's
REQUIREMENTS.
The one who loves his neighbor (ACTUALLY DOES Lev 19:18) has
"FULFILLED" "Pleroo" the Law Rom 13:8 "BECAUSE love DOES NO
wrong". Is it not odd that we are STILL FINISHING (by Jim's
chosen definition) what was ALREADY finished according to Jim's
suggestion above? IS is not more consistent to admit we are
simply obeying this commandment rather than continually
interpreting FULFILL as cram, finish etc??
And so we CONTINUE to be commanded to FULFILL the LAW by actually
OBEYING it James 2:8. Another Fulfill that WE are doing of the
SAME commandments supposedly crammed, finished, EXPIRE (Jim's
suggested definition) already by Christ.
----------------
Jim
So, Jesus came to fill the law full, to complete it, to perfect
it. Did you notice that one meaning is "expire"?
Bob
Yes that is one possible option according to the grammar - but it
does not work in this case since we see Christians commanded to
KEEP that which you claim is "expired" - or in your definition to
"expire" that which you claim is already expired and so "by faith
ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31.
Further we would continue to "expire" by our own fulfilling - Rom
13:8, James 2:8 - making it a meaninless definition. OBEY is more
like it - satisfy what it requires each individual to do - like
the speed limit.
As already pointed out in my previous affirmative and not yet
responded to.
Jim
"expire" That is what happened when it was filled full.
Bob
It is interesting that your pov requires us to consider God's
Word Expired rather than established through faith. Expired "Love
God with all your heart" Duet 6:5 "Expired" Love your neighbor as
yourself (Lev 19:18). Expired laws forbidding the worship of
other gods (Exodus 20:1-4).
Of course you know that I will object to your expiring these
eternal truths of God upon which all His Word is based ---
according to Christ in Matt 22 - but just out of curiosity -what
do you gain by expiring the law to love God (Deut 6:5)??
Jim
Now, if you look at verse 18, you'll see that Jesus said nothing
would be removed from the law until all would be fulfilled. The
Greek word here is different than the one used for "fulfil." The
word used here is "ginomai" (G1096)... come (to pass), be
performed.
...
Basically, we can say, using Strong's definition, that the law
will not be diminished until it is finished and has done what it
was intended to do and was at a natural ending point.
Therefore, Jesus came to bring the law to its natural completion
or ending point, the point at which it fulfilled its purpose.
Bob
Again - it would be well for you to explain how "loving God" Deut
6:5 and "loving our neighbor" Lev 19:18 and prohibiting the
worship of false gods (Ex 20:1-4) and prohibiting murder
.... came to a "natural completion" and natural ceasation point.
Until then - I will go with the definition above stating that
when the predictive laws had been performed and that which was
predicted had come to pass(the lamb dying for the sins of the
world) then those predictive "sacrificial" laws ended. But the
prescriptive "moral" laws about coveting, murder, false gods,
and the Creator's own Holy Day - REMAIN for us to continually
"fulfill" by obedience - James 2:8 Rom 13:8.
-----------------------------------------------
Jim
B. What did He do with regard to the Law of Moses?
During His ministry, Jesus kept the Law of Moses perfectly.
Here Jesus tells us he didn't come to destroy the law, or the
prophets. He came to fulfil them, ...Strong's definition shows us
that it means to make replete, to cram, finish, perfect, or, as
we might say: to fill full. It does not mean to observe or keep.
Bob
You seem to have no end of internally conflicted views. Jesus
KEPT prefectly but fulfilled by NOT bothering to "observe or
keep" since that is not what you allow here.
Jim
Although the Jews accused him of violating the law, he did not.
He may have violated their traditions, but not the law.
Bob
According to your previous interpretation - Christ was definitely
NOT wanting to KEEP or "observe" these laws - and now you say it
KEPT them perfectly - which way do you believe it??????
Jim
In verse Mark 2:27, where He said the sabbath was made for man,
not man for the sabbath, He was telling the Pharisees, that the
sabbath was intended to be a benefit for man, not a controlling
influence. Man was not a slave to the sabbath.
Bob
Slave is not found here - but MADE is found. It is a clear
reference to when MAN WAS MADE and shows that the Holy Seventh-
day that IS the Sabbath was MADE - when it was MADE - for
mankind. MANKIND was not MADE for Sabbath - though BOTH were MADE
the same WEEK.
-------------------
Jim
C. What was the purpose of the Law of Moses?
(Gal 3:16 KJV) "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises
made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And
to thy seed, which is Christ."
(Gal 3:19-26 KJV) "Wherefore then serveth the law?
Bob
This is simply a repeat of the point you made in your second
rebuttal - to which I replied with a detailed look at Gal 3 in my
3rd affirmative last segment. you have yet to respond - but have
left this point where I left it. Here is a brief segment of what
you found in my response - and did not reply to...
Gal 3 {22} But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that
the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that
believe.
Again - Gal 3 makes my point. SIN is STILL a reality the LAW
(EVEN the LAW of Gal 3 mentioned here - given at Sinai) DEFINES
Sin STILL - it places "ALL UNDER SIN" - not just the Jews - "as
if" the LAW was just given for Jews to obey.
Gal 3:{23} But before faith came, we were kept under the law,
shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
{24} Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto
Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
{25} But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a
schoolmaster.
{26} For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
{27} For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have
put on Christ."
The text did not say "but when Jesus came to earth we were no
longer bound by God's Law". It says "but after FAITH is come we
are no longer under a schoolmaster"
----------------------------
Jim
(Eph 2:8-10 KJV) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and
that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
{9} Not of works, lest any man should boast.
{10} For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto
good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in
them."
Bob
Clearly we are intended to ACT in OBEDIENCE to God's Law - the
"good works"mentioned above are those of OBEDIENCE not rebellion.
---------------------------
Jim
(John 19:30 KJV) "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar,
he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the
ghost."
Most people do not attach much significance to this statement,
other than that it meant He was ready to quit living. However, it
has a very important significance in relation to His mission. He
came to fulfill the law, to complete it, to finish it. He tells
us that He did what He came to do. His mission was finished,
completed. He had fulfilled the law, he had completed it. He had
also fulfilled all of the Messianic prophecies regarding
everything about the Messiah, except His resurrection from the
dead. But we are concerned with his finishing the Law
of Moses.
Bob
Ahhh - an actual point of agreement.
Christ fulfilled all the Messianic prophecies - in that sense the
LAW was naturally completed so far as we are speaking of the
predictive law - prophecy. But when speaking of prescriptive law
(have no other god's before me -- etc) it is quite another
matter. In that case He FULFILLED it's requirment - but it STILL
remains a requirement that WE must ALSO FULFILL Rom 13:8, James
2:8. Obviously.
---------------------------
Jim
(Col 2:14 KJV) "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that
was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the
way, nailing it to his cross;"
For those that don't think the law of Moses is the "handwriting
of ordinances" Paul is talking about, let's see what Joseph Henry
Thayer says...
Bob
I responded to your Col 2 argument with and in-depth detail look
at vs 13 and 14 "certificate of debt consisting of decrees
against us" in Col 2 - - and you have yet to carry this point
beyond the point I left it in my 3rd affirmative. Christ paid
our debt - the certificate of debt (the wages of sin) was PAID on
the cross. The LAW that DEFINES our debt and DEFINES sin -
remains - but the DEBT that we OWE is paid. Therefore murder is
STILL sin but our DEBT OWED for hating our brother - is PAID. I
had hoped for some dialogue on Col 2 - nothing yet.
-----------
Jim
The book of Hebrews is a contrasting of the law of Moses with the
law of Christ
Bob
The term "law of Christ" is not found in the entire book of
Hebrews. No such contrast is made in Hebrews between something
Moses dreamed up and something that Christ authored. NOR do we
find that Christ is NOT the God of Sinai in the book of Hebrews.
Rather - God's Law regarding sacrifices is reviewed and compared
to the New Covenant promise of Jeremiah 31 and Ezek 36 (and Duet
6:6, and Ps 37:27-31 Ps 40:8 etc) in Heb 8 and Heb 10.
We are told that only Christ's death can serve as the REAL
sacrifice acceptable to God. No mention of the 10 commandments
in Heb 7 or 8 or 9 or 10 being ended or compared or abolished -
only that they are written on the tablets of the human heart.
Jim
that shows how the old law was a shadow of the good things to
come in the law of Christ.
Bob
Interesting terminology - but I don't find it in Hebrews.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jim
It tells about Jesus being a priest after the order of
Melchisedek, and then says:
(Heb 7:12 KJV) "For the priesthood being changed, there is made
of necessity a change also of the law."
The law was to be changed. It was weak, it made nothing perfect.
The old law could not promise the forgiveness of sins, but the
new law could and did.
Bob
First of all notice how this Jewish-centric church emphasises the
CHANGES in God's Word with the coming of Christ and His
aacrifice. Once our PASSOVER LAMB is slain (1 Cor 5:7) -- fully
fulfilling that predictive sacrificial prophecy - the CHANGE is
touted loud and repeatedly - the sacrifices are ended Heb 10:4-12
in no uncertain terms. And the REASON is given exhaustively from
Heb 7-10 SHOWING that Christ IS the sacrifice predicted and HAS
been sacrificed as PROMISED in those SHADOW types given AFTER the
fall of man.
Why focus so much on the CHANGE? Because this is a Jewish centric
church with exclusively JEWISH Apostles and a high council in
Jerusalem determining matters between gentile and Jewish
believers Acts 15. They would need CHANGES spelled out in
triplicate - NOT simply by innuendo.
--------------
Jim
(Heb 7:18-19 KJV) "For there is verily a disannulling of the
commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness
thereof.
{19} For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a
better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God."
The commandment (ten commandments, law of Moses) was/were weak
and unprofitable, so a better hope was brought in, a better
covenant based on better promises.
Bob
It is hardly possible to imagine a more corrupt abuse of Heb 7
than the one stated above. Heb 7 is speaking of the fact that
priests were to come from among the Levites BUT Melchizedek LIKE
Christ has NO lineage from Levites - the COMMAND that one must be
a Levite to be a priest is SET ASIDE and CHRIST is the ONE TRUE
Priest (who would NOT be a priest by the command of God regarding
priests). God set aside that levitical requirement and sets
Melchizedek AND Christ up as priests - where Melchizedek is a
TYPE of Christ. (according to chapter 7). NOTHING is HINTED at
that the prohibition against Murder and against worshiping false
gods is WEAK and needs to be SET ASIDE so that Christ can be our
High Priest.
Your effort above is classic eisegetical injection of what you
wish the text talked about. I appeal for some attention to detail
here, not merely defensive snippet texting hoping that some
portion of sentence will suit your purposes.
---------------------------------
(Heb 8:6-9 KJV) "But now hath he obtained a more excellent
ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better
covenant, which was established upon better promises.
{7} For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no
place have been sought for the second.
{8} For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come,
saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house
of Israel and with the house of Judah:
{9} Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the
land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I
regarded them not, saith the Lord."
(Heb 9:11-23
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things
to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect
tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this
creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His
own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having
obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer
sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing
of the flesh,
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the
eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse
your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so
that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the
transgressions that were committed under the first covenant,
those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal
inheritance.
16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death
of the one who made it.
17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is
never in force while the one who made it lives.
18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without
blood.
19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the
people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and
the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled
both the book itself and all the people,
20 saying, "" THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD
COMMANDED YOU.''
21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all
the vessels of the ministry with the blood.
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are
cleansed with blood, and without SHEDDING OF BLOOD there is no
forgiveness.
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the
heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things
themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Notice NOTHING is said here about doing AWAY with the 5 books
written by Moses(including the Creation account) - RATHER we have
A PORTION - that is the law of SACRIFICES being addressed - the
LAW regarding the "BLOOD of CALVES and of GOATS" and the contrast
between the old covenant of ANIMAL sacrifices and the new
covenant of Christ's sacrifice.
Your use of this fact regarding animal blood to attempting to
trash the word of God given in the 5 books of Moses is blatant
eisegesis.
Jim
It is obvious here that the first testament, the law of Moses was
replaced by the "new testament."
Bob
No mention of old testament scriptures all being abolished -
RATHER Heb 8 and 10 QUOTE EXTENSIVELY from the OT to ESTABLISH
what the New COVENANT IS - SHOWING that it is CONTAINED in the
Old Testament.
I appeal for careful reading and use of scripture - rather than the
abuse of it.
---------------------
(Heb 10:1-10 KJV) "For the law having a shadow of good things to
come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those
sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the
comers thereunto perfect.
{2} For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because
that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience
of sins.
{3} But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of
sins every year.
{4} For it is not possible that the BLOOD of BULLS and GOATS
should TAKE AWAY SINS. ....
{8} Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt
offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst
pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
{9} Then said he,Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away
the first, that he may establish the second.
{10} By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of
the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
AGAIN - the focus is EXPLICITLY stated as being on the
sacrificial laws regarding "Blood of bulls and GOATs", "BURNT
offerings and sacrifices FOR SIN". This is NOT a discussion
saying "it is impossible for God's COMMANDMENT 'DO NOT MURDER'
to take away sins - for that we need Christ's DUPLICATE version
'Do NOT MURDER' to actually take away sin". This is in NO WAY
arguing Christ's DUPLICATE commanmdents to replace God's. RATHER
it is an argument between ANIMAL blood and the BLOOD of the Son
of God.
The text is NOT nullifying the LAW that DEFINES SIN - it is
addressing the law that DEFINES ANIMAL SACRIFICE as PAYMENT.
Christ took away the first - ANIMAL SACRIFICES - to establish the
SECOND.
By stretching this as you do in your conclusion below - you might
as well continue by saying "The Word of God is simply a shadow of
good things to come - but now we can dispense with God's Word"
because of course - God's Word EVER contained the section on
animal sacrifices.
Jim
The law of Moses had only a shadow of good things to come and
not the very image of them and thus could not remove sin or make
those under it perfect.
Bob
Only that PART of the LAW that addresses the SUBJECT of Heb 8-10
ANIMAL SACRIFICES.
But CREATION REMAINS CREATION, GOD REMAINS the CREATOR,
SIN REMAINS SIN, and it is STILL wrong to murder, worship false
gods or break Christ - the CREATOR's - HOLY day.
Jim
Therefore, Jesus Christ took away the first in order to establish
the second, His law.
Bob
There is NO mention here of "HIS LAW vs MOSES LAW" there is NO
mention of a LIST of LAWS that are now REPLACING the old list.
You have yet to show Christ coming up with HIS LAW that is a
duplicate of His Father's law - saying it is NOT to be considered
God's law but Christ's law - REPLACING - God's law. You keep
claiming that such is implied in texts - though never actually
shown to exist.
Part 3 - the final part of this rebuttal will deal with the New
Covenant in 2Cor 3 as Jim raised this point in his affirmative.
-----------------------------
Jim
Paul contrasts the law of Moses with the law of Christ in Rom. 8
Bob
No he does not. No such discussion is found in Romans 8.
Jim
and refers to the law of Moses as the law of sin and death and
the law of Christ as the law of the Spirit of life.
Bob
No he does not. No such discussion is found in Romans 8.
--------------------------------------
Jim
He confirms this to the Corinthians.
Bob
A careful review of 2Cor 3 is called for to actually make your
point - I highly recommend it. (which I assume you are implying
with this vague reference to Corinthians in general).
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jim
The person walking by the law of Moses is walking after the
flesh, and the person walking by the law of Christ is walking
after the Spirit.
Bob
Interesting assumption - and the proof?
(Rom 8:1-5 KJV) "There is therefore now no condemnation to them
which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but
after the Spirit.
{2} For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me
free from the law of sin and death.
{3} For what the law could not do, in that it was weak
through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of
sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
{4} That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who
walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
{5} For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the
flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."
No mention here of the "LAW of Moses". Rather it is GOD's LAW
that COULD NOT SAVE because (as WE ALREADY NOTED IN Gal 3)
God's/Christ's LAW IS NOT NOW SAVING (in the New Testament age)
NOR WAS there EVER a LAW of GOD or Christ GIVEN to SAVE mankind.
By the works of the LAW (any LAW of God the Father OR God the
Son) shall NO FLESH (any flesh PRE-Cross or Post-Cross) be
JUSTIFIED. Rom 3:20.
Why? Because That is not the PURPOSE of LAW. Gal 3:21
Had you responded to our Gal 3 topic (which you brought up
before) we could actually carry this point forward, but as it is
it rests where I left it in my Gal 3 section of my 3rd
affirmative.
------------------------------
Jim
We already saw the weakness of the law of Moses, since it was
only a shadow, and not the real thing. It was the ministration of
death, written and engraven in stones.
Bob
Again - since it was God HIMSELF who SPOKE and WROTE HIS LAW on
tablets of stone - and WHO - under the New Covenant WRITES that
SAME law on the tablets of the human heart - let's do a CAREFUL
review of the 2Cor 3 text -
2 Corinthians chapter 3
Paul makes the point of telling us in 2Cor3 that the SUBJECT is
the CONTRAST between the use of the LAW in the OLD Covenant and
the NEW - notice that BOTH the OLD and NEW Covenant are the
subjects of 2Cor3. It is the SAME LAW but the issue is WHERE IT
is for the believer - if it is merely EXTERNAL it will simply
DEFINE sin and DECREE our death.
2Cor 3
vs 6 "who also made US adequate as SERVANTS of a NEW Covenant"
vs 14 "until THIS VERY DAY at the reading of the OLD Covenant the
SAME veil REMAINS UNLIFTED because IT IS REMOVED IN CHRIST. But
to this day whenever Moses is read, a VEIL lies over their heart.
But WHENEVER a man TURNS TO THE LORD the VEIL is taken away"
(Notice it does not say whenever they STOP reading Moses the Veil
is taken way - RATHER when they TURN to the LORD (the ONE TRUE
GOD) they can read Moses with the VEIL taken away.)
This conrast of OUTWARD focus in the OLD Covenant and INWARD in the
NEW Covenant is amplified in these words regarding the LAW
"you are a letter of Christ cared for by us WRITTEN not with ink,
but wih the SPIRIT of the living God, NOT ON TABLETS of Stone
(the LAW of the OLD Covenant - 10 commandments) but ON TABLETS of
the HUMAN HEART" 2Cor 3:3
That which is WRITTEN OUTWARDLY on "TABLETS of STONE" in the Old
Covenant (God's LAW) is written INWARDLY "ON TABLETS of the
HUMAN HEART" under the New Covenant.
God FURTHER makes the SAME NEW Covenant point in Hebrews 8 "I
will WRITE MY LAWS upon their HEARTS" Heb 8:10 --- which is a
REPEAT of Jeremiah 31:33 where the term LAW in it's HIGHEST
purest form IS the LAW for Jeremiah's day written on TABLETS of
STONE (as Paul tells us).
So when God speaks these words to His Prophet about writing
INWARDLY that which the infinite unchanging CREATOR God calls
"LAW" (INWARDLY on the heart) - the CONTEXT demands that we
consider the 10 commandments as the PRIMARY reference.
JAMES 2 is in FULL agreement with this giving us EXAMPLES of the
"LAW" of God - as "the LAW of LIBERTY" - and the EXAMPLES are
simply excerpts from the LAW written on TABLETS of STONE. (Do not
MURDER, and Do NOT commit adultery).
Romans two makes it clear that REAL Christians "show that the
WORK of the LAW is WRITTEN on their HEARTS"
Romans 2:15. Regarding pagans who HAVE no scripture but "DO
INSTINCTIVELY the THINGS of the LAW" ..."For when GENTILES who DO
NOT have the LAW - do INSTINCTIVELY THE THINGS OF THE LAW..." -
clearly it is the SAME LAW of the infinite unchanging CREATOR God
which they DO NOT HAVE OUTWARDLY, but DO have it WRITTEN on their
heart INWARDLY. That same LAW is expanded and shown to be the
SAME OUTWARD LAW of the JEWS in this SAME chapter "IF THEREFORE
the uncircumcised man KEEPS the REQUIREMENTS of THE LAW, will
not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? And will not
he who is PHYSICALLY uncircumcised IF HE KEEPS THE LAW will he
not JUDGE you though having the LETTER OF THE LAW and physically
circumcised - as a TRANSGRESSOR of THE LAW"
"For HE is NOT a JEW who is one OUTWARDLY; Neither is
circumcision that which is OUTWARD in the FLESH. But HE IS A JEW
who is one INWARDLY, and circumcision is that which is OF THE
HEART - by the SPIRIT -- NOT by the LETTER". Rom 2:26-29
And of course the ROMANS view of WHAT the Law is - is stated
clearly as it is quoted in Romans 7.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be!
On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through
the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had
not said, "" YOU SHALL NOT COVET.''
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced
in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment
came, sin became alive and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to
result in death for me;
Paul also calls the Law "Scripture" - Gal 3:21 Is the Law then
contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law
had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness
would indeed have been based on law.
22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the
promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who
believe.
The TRUTH that the LAW that is OUTWARD apart from the NEW
Covenant - and written on TABLETS of STONE - is made INWARD under
the New Covenant (even in Jeremiah's context) "on TABLETS of the
Human HEART" - is CLEARLY taught in scripture. AND the fact that
this "LAW OF LIBERTY" is the SAME LAW written on tablets of stone
containing the COMMANDMENTS "Do not Murder and DO NOT commit
adultery" is made abundantly clear by the text of JAMES 2. AND
the Authorotative UNIT of law quoted by Paul in Ephesians 6 is
that 10 Commandment UNIT written on Tablets of STONE - whose
"FIRST commandment with a promise" according to Paul - is the
5th commandment to honor parents.
2Cor 3:
5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as
coming from ourselves,but our adequacy is from God,
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of
the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the
Spirit gives life.
Clearly the New Covenant is the alternative to DEATH - to that
which Kills. Only ONE Gospel, only one way of salvation. The New
Covenant. And the key to is in the fact that the Spirit of God
is working on the "tablets of the human heart" with the LAW that
would otherwise simply be written on "tablets of stone".
2Cor 3
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones,
came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look
intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face,
fading as it was,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with
glory?
Again the contrast - DEATH vs LIFE. While the law is NOT written
on the heart - while it is simply external - engraved on stone,
it only serves to condemn us to death. Paul made this very clear
in Romans. "The wages of Sin is death". God's scripture has
placed all men under sin. The Law is not a "means of salvation" -
but the New Covenant DOES something with the Law of God - it
WRITES it on the "tablets of the human heart" - no longer merely
"external" but part of the transformed "new creation" old things
passed away - saints "obeying from the heart".
2Cor 3
9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does
the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.
10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because
of the glory that surpasses it.
11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that
which remains is in glory.
God's law EVEN in it's external (condemning form) has glory - but
is remains the ministry of "death" condemning all mankind under
sin, without the Gospel there is only the eternal righteous law
of God condemning mankind as a lost sinner. One problem (Sin),
One solution (Christ), One plan (the Gospel) - for all the World
(God so loved THE WORLD that He gave His only Son).
2Cor 3
14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the
reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted,
because it is removed in Christ.
The lost depraved person does not understand the things of God -
does not understand spiritual truths - the LAW is spiritual and
depraved humanity can not accept it without the transforming work
of the Holy Spirit.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of
flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
Rom 7:12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy
and righteous and good.
1Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but
the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely
given to us by God,
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human
wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual
thoughts with spiritual words.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of
God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand
them, because they are spiritually appraised.
15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself
is appraised by no one.
2 Cor 315 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies
over their heart;
16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken
away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord
is, there is liberty.
The Veil is taken away so that they can READ the writings of
scripture - of Moses and NOT have a VEIL over their heart. For
the LAW of God is WRITTEN on the tablets of the human heart under
the New Covenant.
Acts 7:38 ""This is the one who was in the congregation in the
wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on
Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living
oracles to pass on to you.
The texts does not say "in Christ they choose to stop reading
what Moses wrote at God's command" - rather it shows that they
can NOW read Moses WITHOUT the veil over their heart blocking the
spiritual truths of the law "that is spiritual". NOW they can
combine spiritual WORDS with spiritual THOUGHTS - taught by the
Holy Spirit "And they shall ALL BE TAUGHT of God" under the New
Covenent.
2Tim 3:14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned
and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings
which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation
through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching,
for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every
good work
Here we see the ONE Gospel principle working EVEN in the life of
a Timothy (whose mother was a Jew) - find SALVATION in the OT
"sacred writings" through FAITH "which is in Christ Jesus" -
because ALL SCRIPTURE (not just sections that we prefer) is not
only INSPIRED but ALSO to be USED (profitable) for TEACHING,
correction, training...
The unchanging 10 Commandment LAW of the unchanging infinite
infallible CREATOR is written ON TABLETS of the HUMAN HEART under
the New Covenant. Jeremiah, Ezekiel AND Moses Deut 6:6 agree.
--------
Paul tells the Galatians, that if they attempt to be justified by
the law ... (ANY LAW) - they will be lost -
(Gal 5:4 KJV) "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever
of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."
Why? Because That is not the PURPOSE of LAW. Gal 3:21
Had you responded to our Gal 3 topic (which you brought up
before) we could actually carry this point forward, but as it is
it rests where I left it in my Gal 3 section of my 3rd
affirmative.
------------------------------------------
Jim writes
E. To which law are we amenable today?
The previous discussion shows us that the law of Moses was taken
out of the way, so we are not amenable to it today. Therefore,
since Jesus gave us His law and died for us, then it is now in
force and we are amenable to the law of Christ.
Bob
Interesting that in all this - you have yet to show Christ - (pre
cross John 14:15) or post Cross giving his DUPLICATE commandments
and declaring the 10 to be dead.
Jim
As we read in Hebrews 9:17 "For a testament is of force after men
are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the
testator liveth."
Today, we are amenable to the law of Christ, the gospel of
Christ, which began to be preached on Pentecost by Peter and the
apostles. The following scriptures show that we are amenable to
the gospel.
Bob
Having failed to come up with "the law of Christ" that is shown
to contain the duplicate 9. You are now switching to the Gospel
and appealing that we see the Gospel as replacing God's Word in
the OT.
Had you responded to the texts already provided SHOWING the ONE
Gospel (Gal 1:6) PREACHED to Abraham Gal 3:7-8 and to Israel JUST
as it was to us Heb 4:1-2 - we could carry this point forward. As
it is, you have merely left it where I placed it in my last
affirmative - unnanswered.
However I am pleased that you DO seem to recognize that what is
GOD's IS Christ's when it comes to the Gospel As Christ said "ALL
THAT the FATHER has are MINE" John 17:10.
(2 Th 1:8 KJV) "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that
know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus
Christ:"
(1 Pet 4:17 KJV) "For the time is come that judgment must begin
at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the
end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"
2Cor3 shows that the SAME law written on tablets of stone - is to
be written on tablets of the human heart in the NEW Covenant.
Heb 7-10 showed that the SACRIFICIAL laws of the blood of bulls
and goats are ended - with the sacrifice of the one true lamb -
Christ.
None of this worked to void God's own 10 commandments that DEFINE
what sin IS.
Thus, your affirmative has so far failed each one of it's four
arguments - and so it fails to prove its case that the keeping of
the weekly Sabbath is not scripturally binding on Christians
today.