STROM/PUCKETT DEBATE ON SABBATH

 
 
Proposition: 
Resolved, that the keeping of the weekly Sabbath is scripturally binding on 
Christians today.

Affirm: Bob Strom
Deny: James Puckett

I might suggest to Bob, that it would help, when giving Bible references, to give 
also the verses unless the complete chapter is needed for the reference. This will 
ensure that I can concentrate on the intended verses and not on extraneous 
material.

Second Negative:

Bob:
"1. One Gospel for all ages means the blessing of God's 7th day of Creation – 
(Sabbath) - is not anti-Gospel.

Paul makes the case in Gal 1:6 showing us that there is in fact only one way of 
salvation - only one Gospel."

This means the saints we see in Heb 11 were all saved by the ONE Gospel - made 
men of faith -via the ONE plan of salvation. Yet we agree that all of them (or you 
would agree that at least most of them) kept Sabbath.

Jim:
The word "gospel" does not appear in the O.T. Therefore, I cannot say that the 
Gospel of Christ applied to those living before the death of Jesus on the cross, 
although the cleansing from sin provided by the blood of Christ did apply to the 
sins committed by those who lived before. The Gospel of Christ was not preached 
to them as it is now preached to those living after the cross. Those living before 
the cross were amenable to the law that God provided for them. We are amenable 
to the law of Christ as it is now in effect. Those who were delivered from Egypt 
through those who died before the cross were amenable to the Law of Moses. 
There was no forgiveness of sins under the Law of Moses. Their sins were 
remembered every year.

Yes, there is only one gospel taught in the Bible, the gospel of Christ.  Certainly 
nothing that God did throughout the years was anti-gospel. The Sabbath was not 
anti-gospel, because the seventh day Sabbath was not part of it.

(Gal 1:6 KJV)  "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you 
into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:"

Yes, there is only one gospel, there is only one name whereby we must saved.  
However, you cannot make the gospel retroactive, as those living before the cross 
of Christ were not amenable to the gospel of Christ, but to God's law that was 
active during their lifetimes.

Obviously, those who lived under the Law of Moses kept the Sabbath. I cannot 
say that Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or Joseph kept the Sabbath. 
We have no record that those who lived before the deliverance from Egypt- kept 
the Sabbath. Otherwise, you would have quoted it in your arguments. You have 
only assumed that they did.

If you will provide Book, Chapter, and Verse to show that any of them kept the 
Sabbath, then I will retract my statement that we have no record that they kept it. 
The first account of a day in which the people could do no work, of which I am 
aware, is when the children of Israel were preparing to leave Egypt in Exodus 
12:16.

Bob:
"2. God's 10 commandments are a unique identifiable unit - that defines sin.

The 10 commandments are identified as a single unit - distinct from all other 
scripture.

ON Stone, 1Kings 8:9, Ex 34:28 - written by the hand of God - Deut 4:13

Spoken DIRECTLY by God to His people and when He spoke these "10 words" 
scripture Exodus 20:1, 19-22 says "He added no more". Deut 5:22 These were 
"the 10 words...of the covenant" Ex 34:28."

Jim:
Obviously, since they were written by the finger of God on two tables of stone, 
they are a unique identifiable unit. So what? Does that make what God dictated 
and Moses wrote down was any less important or binding? All of it was binding 
and part of the whole covenant and law that God gave to Israel through Moses.

The ten commandments were the backbone of this covenant God was making 
with Israel. God spent 40 days and 40 nights in the mount with Moses, giving him 
the complete law. God dictated and Moses wrote it down. That is what took the 
extended period of time. Notice that when Moses had to go back for the second 
set of stones, he was there another 40 days and 40 nights. Did it take God 40 days 
and nights to carve the ten commandments into those two tables of stone? I don't 
think so.

You emphasize that God spoke the ten commandments directly to the people. Did 
you also notice why He did not speak the rest to them directly? The people were 
afraid and begged Moses to get it from God and then tell them so they would not 
have to hear it directly from God.

(Exo 20:18-20 KJV)  "And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, 
and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw 
it, they removed, and stood afar off.
{19} And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not 
God speak with us, lest we die.
{20} And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, 
and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not."

So, it was the people's fear that kept God from speaking the whole law to them, 
not the statutes of the Ten Commandments.

You mentioned "10 words" twice, but you gave no scripture to back it up. I could 
not find "10 words" or "ten words" in the entire Bible.

(Deu 4:1-2 KJV)  "Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the 
judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and 
possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.
{2} Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye 
diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your 
God which I command you."

Yes, these Ten Commandments defined sin, but the rest of the law that Moses 
wrote down also defined sin. Had the High Priest not worn the linen clothing, or 
the ephod, or the mitre as he was commanded, would he not have sinned? Of 
course he would. Had they not put the daily showbread in its place daily, would 
that not have been a sin? Of course it would. What about the commands against 
homosexuality, or bestiality? Were they not as binding as the command to not 
commit adultery? Of course they were.

Bob:
"Paul states in Romans 7 that this law defines sin.

Destroying God's Law - destroys the need for a Savior who came to save us by 
paying the penalty His law demands for violation. Honoring God's Law means 
honoring the Sabbath contained in that Law (which is why we will be keeping the 
Sabbath in the New Earth Isaiah 66.)

James calls this unit - the "Law of Liberty" in James 2:10-12"

Jim:
Of course the law defined sin. That is the purpose of a law; to give the boundaries 
of acceptable behavior. However, when Paul talks about the Law of Moses, he did 
not limit it to the Ten Commandments. If you believe he was, give us BCV (book, 
chapter, and verse) to prove it. He does talk about more than one law in Romans 
7.

(James 2:10-12 KJV)  "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in 
one point, he is guilty of all.
{11} For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou 
commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
{12} So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty."

I'm afraid you are mistaken about what James called the "law of liberty." He was 
not referring to the Ten Commandments or the Law of Moses in its entirety. He 
was talking about the law of Christ. He was contrasting it with the Law of Moses. 
Notice that he used two of the Ten Commandments as examples. He said that if 
you break one command you are a transgressor of the law, the whole law. You 
cannot break one point without being a lawbreaker.  You missed the difference 
between the law "of sin and death", which is the Law of Moses, and the law "of 
liberty", "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus", which is the law of Christ.

(Rom 8:1-3 KJV)  "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in 
Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
{2} For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the 
law of sin and death.
{3} For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God 
sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in 
the flesh:"

The Law of Moses was weak through the flesh. That's part of the reason it was 
replaced by the new law, the law of Christ.

Bob, you still have not given any scripture to support your claim that the Sabbath 
is binding on us today. You have only given us assumptions. You assume that 
when God sanctified (set apart, made holy) the seventh day because He rested in 
it after creating the world, that man must have automatically started keeping is as 
the Sabbath. However, you have given no evidence or proof whatsoever to 
support this assumption.

God did command the children of Israel to keep the Sabbath as a day of rest, but 
they are the only people the Bible ever tells us were commanded to keep the 
Sabbath. He told them they were to keep the Sabbath because He had rested in 
that day after the creation. However, you have shown nothing to prove that He 
intends for us to keep the Sabbath. We have evidence that the early church met on 
Sunday rather than the Sabbath.

(Acts 20:7 KJV)  "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came 
together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; 
and continued his speech until midnight."

(1 Cor 16:2 KJV)  "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him 
in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."

Bob:
1. God made the 7th day a "Holy day" AT creation - not at Mt Sinai.
2. God made the Sabbath for mankind - not simply a tribe of  mankind.
3. God places a REMINDER in the 10 commandments - reminding the Hebrews 
to REMEMBER what had been done at Creation in making the day holy and in 
Remembering to KEEP the day holy as specified in the commandment.
4. The motivation/incentive to WORSHIP God on the BASIS of His being creator 
as the Sabbath commandment does - REMAINS a valid form of worship even in 
the NT (Rev 14 given as an example).
5. The LANGUAGE of the 4th commandment is unique and can be traced 
through both the OT and NT as it is referenced (Rev 14 was given as an example).

Jim:
There is no connection between Rev. 14 and the Sabbath.  None of your 
statements here has any bearing on whether or not we must keep the Sabbath 
today.

Bob:
6. The OT not ONLY shows us all mankind receiving the 7th day as a holy day in 
Gen 2 - BUT ALSO after the establishment of the Hebrew-nation-church we find 
Non-Hebrews being called to observe the Sabbath in Isaiah 56.
7. God further demonstrates the applicability of the Sabbath to ALL mankind in 
Isaiah 66 as He points to the fact that ALL MANKIND will come and worship 
"from Sabbath to Sabbath.
8. Christ AFFIRMS the applicability of the Sabbath to MANKIND by stating that 
the Holy Seventh-day Sabbath was MADE (when it was MADE) for mankind and 
that mankind was NOT MADE (when we were MADE) for the Sabbath.
9. Our seven day weekly cycle originates FROM Creation week - and the 7th day 
NOTHING is Created EXCEPT the divine act of making that day a Holy day.
10. The Holy seventh-day Sabbath is one of three blessings mankind took with 
him from the Garden of Eden (Marriage and the living planet being the other 
two)."

Jim:
As for Isa 56, the prophet was speaking to the Jews. You said in your first 
affirmative that scripture is to be taken literally, so you will need to prove this has 
application beyond the Jewish nation.

I'm afraid your reference to Isa. 66 doesn't help your case, either. What about the 
new heavens and new earth? "One new moon to another? This says they will all 
gather in Jerusalem on horses, in chariots, on mules, etc. We are not in Jerusalem, 
so that cannot apply to us.

(Mark 2:27-28 KJV)  "And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, 
and not man for the Sabbath:
{28} Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath."

Man needed the rest from his labors to recuperate. That is why he says the 
Sabbath was made for man. It wasn't made to have something that man must 
comply with, but because it was a needed benefit for man. God rested after His 
labors, so man also need a rest.

Bob:
Actually I am claiming that when God "ADDED Day Seven" at creation week 
when we got our 7 day week) - He was THEN creating the memorial in time. God 
did not make days 1-6 at Sinai - nor did He make day 7. They already existed, the 
cycle existed as He handed it to man with it's holy Seventh-day in Eden.

Jim:
Okay, I misunderstood your statement. I'm sorry. However, your wording was 
very unclear as to exactly what you meant.

How do you know that God was creating a memorial when He sanctified the 
seventh day after creation? What proof is there. When He gave the command to 
keep the Sabbath to the children of Israel, then He made a memorial out of the 
Sabbath. When Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper as a memorial of His death (his 
body and his blood), He didn't leave us guessing. Neither does God leave us 
guessing whenever He creates a memorial. Had he been creating a memorial at 
the time of creation, He would have told us how to remember it.  He did not say 
anything about remembering it until he gave the law to Israel.

God does not set up memorials by osmosis. He tells us in no uncertain terms what 
He wants us to do about it.

When the tabernacle was set up, the appliances for the services were sanctified. 
Did that make them a memorial? Of course not.

(Lev 20:7 KJV)  "Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the 
LORD your God."

He told the children of Israel to sanctify themselves, to be holy. Did that make 
them a memorial? Of course not.

Neither did sanctifying the seventh day, make it a memorial, as you claim.

(Exo 20:11 KJV)  "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and 
all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the 
Sabbath day, and hallowed it."

Notice that God said that he rested on the seventh day, and therefore he blessed 
and hallowed the Sabbath day. It doesn't say He had made a memorial out of it. 
He was doing that in Exod. 20:8-11.

Now, let's look at your answers to my questions.

1. Where in the Bible is the first time man is commanded to keep the Sabbath as a 
day of rest?

You agree the first time is in Exod. 20:8, at Sinai. You say it was "handed to 
mankind as a Holy Day in Genesis two." Now where are we ever told it was 
"handed to man", or something similar, before the exodus? BCV. It was given to 
man in Exod. 20:8-11.

2. What evidence is there in the Bible that men kept the Sabbath before the 
children of Israel left Egypt?

You use a lot of words to give no evidence.

3. To whom is the Law of Moses addressed?

You gave no answer but a sarcastic question about to whom the Colossian letter 
was addressed.  The answer is really quite easy:

(Exo 20:1-2 KJV)  "And God spake all these words, saying,
{2} I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, 
out of the house of bondage."
The Law of Moses was addressed to those people whom God brought out of 
Egyptian bondage, the children of Israel. It was not addressed to all mankind, as 
you want to believe. The Ten Commandments were not given to anyone but the 
Jews. It is understandable that you wouldn't want to answer this question 
seriously.

4. Where in the New Testament is any command given to the church that Jesus 
built that keeping the Sabbath is required? Matt. 16:18

Bob:
"OK - but first can we agree that Christ is God - and therefore when He created 
mankind and then decided to make the 7th day Holy - that IS Christ giving HIS 
people the ONE Holy Day made at creation?  Can we also agree that as God He 
also gave His nation-church, the Hebrew people at Sinai - the 10 
commandments?"

Jim:
I'm not sure what you are driving at, but the Hebrew people were not the church 
that Jesus built and died to save. They were called the "church in the wilderness" 
in Acts 7:38, but they were only the shadow of the church of Christ. Christ did not 
give His church the 10 commandments. They were given to the Hebrews. So, I'm 
not sure what continuity you mean.

You keep talking about the law not being destroyed or abolished. I agree. The law 
was not destroyed. Jesus came to fulfill it, not to destroy it. Matt. 5:17. When He 
fulfilled it, he filled it full. He completed it. With his death on the cross as the 
perfect sacrifice, he fulfilled the law and took it out of the way.

(Col 2:14 KJV)  "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, 
which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"

Notice that Paul said "handwriting of ordinances". Remember how you 
emphasized that God wrote the Ten Commandments on the tables of stone? Now 
the "handwriting on the wall" is going to haunt your doctrine. When the law was 
fulfilled, it had served its purpose.

(Gal 3:16-27 KJV)  "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He 
saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is 
Christ.
{17} And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in 
Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, 
that it should make the promise of none effect.
{18} For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it 
to Abraham by promise.
{19} Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till 
the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by 
angels in the hand of a mediator.
{20} Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
{21} Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had 
been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have 
been by the law.
{22} But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of 
Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
{23} But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith 
which should afterwards be revealed.
{24} Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we 
might be justified by faith.
{25} But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
{26} For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
{27} For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

Notice that Paul tells the Galatians that the inheritance is not of the law, but of 
promise. What purpose did the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, 
till the seed should come. Notice that it was only until the seed should come. Who 
was the seed? Jesus Christ. He came and fulfilled the law, so the law passed away. 
In verse 24, he tells us the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. It 
wasn't the ultimate teacher. Christ was. In Roman times, a slave was used to tutor 
the owner’s children. He would help them prepare their lessons and then take 
them to school. He would leave them at the school with the teacher. The law 
served that purpose. It prepared man for the teacher, Christ. Then when its job 
was finished, it left the scene. This was the whole Law of Moses, Ten 
Commandments, Sabbath and all. We are children of God by faith in Christ, not 
by keeping the Sabbath, or the Ten Commandments, but by obedient faith.

Bob:
"Christ affirms that His own Law can not be broken. It can only be fulfilled. Matt 
5:"

Jim:
(Mat 5:17-18 KJV)  "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: 
I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
{18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle 
shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

I assume this is the passage to which you refer. Jesus is saying that he came to 
fulfill the law, not to destroy it. He said it will not be diminished until he has 
fulfilled it. He did not say his law could not be broken. People violate Christ's law 
every day. Christ is/was the only one who could fulfill the law and he did this on 
the cross.

Bob:
"There is also no statement in scripture that any of God's 10 commandments are 
to be voided if not re-quoted by a later writer.  So we conclude that the 3rd 
commandment remains in force - as do all of God's 10 commandments - since 
they apply to mankind not simply Hebrews."

Jim:
Of course there isn't. The Ten Commandments were nailed to the cross with the 
rest of the Law of Moses. The doctrine of Christ does include injunctions against 
all of the evils the Ten Commandments prohibited, except for the Sabbath 
commandment. That is your problem that you are trying to get around.  Jesus nor 
his apostles never commanded his church to keep the Sabbath. His church did not 
keep the Sabbath. Why? The answer is in the next paragraph.

Bob:
"Beyond this - Paul just comes right out and tells us in Hebrews 4 "there 
REMAINS therefore a Sabbath REST for the People of God". None of the 
Sabbath FEAST days listed in Lev 23 have the REST focus absent the sacrifices – 
that we see in the Creator's 7th day Sabbath of the Commandment."
 
Jim:
Yes, Bob, we finally got around to it. There remains a Sabbath rest for the people 
of God, for the church. We call it heaven. That is the Christian's Sabbath. I will 
discuss this more fully in my first affirmative, but for now you can read Heb. 4:8-
11 carefully to see how it compares to God's rest at creation. You'll learn why we 
do not keep the seventh day Sabbath. You'll see that the seventh day Sabbath was 
only a shadow of good things to come.

5. Where in the New Testament do we find any example of the church assembling 
on the Sabbath? Note that I am not referring to instances where Paul and others 
went to the synagogue on the Sabbath to teach and preach the gospel. This was 
not the church assembling, but a teaching opportunity.

 Bob:
In the book of Acts there is only ONE day of the week where we find assembly 
and Gospel preaching occurring consecutively week after week - to GENTILES. 
That day is the Creator's 7th-day Sabbath. And this - from the Apostle to the 
Gentiles.
 
Jim:
Bob, that was not the church assembly. That was Paul and others going to the 
Jews to teach them the gospel. The church did not meet for the assembly on the 
Sabbath. I have already given you two scriptures that how they met on the first 
day of the week. Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:2.

Well, this has become much longer than I anticipated. Enjoy.

In Christ, Jim P.