Stringer/Bunch Debate on Christmas

 
 
 Proposition: 
 The Christian may celebrate December 25th as a 
 national holiday.
 
 Affirm:  Larry Bunch
 Deny:  Jason Stringer
 It is my hope that we can come to a better understanding of this, 
 and why I object to the Christian playing a role in it.  Let me 
 address something first and foremost.  It was not my intention in 
 the last post that I made to "get nasty" with Larry or anything 
 like that.  This started out as, and should remain a gentlemanly 
 discussion.  Larry, if you took offense at anything I said, I 
 apologize.  Sometimes I type or say things that in hindsight 
 would have been better unsaid or untyped.  
 
 Now to our discussion.
 
 Larry writes:  
 Jason was warned regarding the proposition he signed to negate! I 
 wrote him on Nov.6, ""The Christian may celebrate December 25th 
 as a national holiday." You might want to modify it (I know I 
 would!)" Jason responded, "Resolved:  It is sinful for the 
 Christian to engage in the traditional observation of December 
 25th, including erecting trees, decorating trees, attending 
 "Christmas Parties", exchanging cards and gifts, exchanging 
 "Holiday Greetings," and decorating their home with lights and 
 ornaments specific to this holiday." I did not want such a long 
 and involved proposition so he signed the one I proposed. He 
 wants me to not change my opinion or understanding when I 
 acknowledged I did not get the whole gist of his definitions, now 
 he is crying because of what I wrote in my affirmation - simply 
 affirming what the proposition says!
 
 JES Here:
 Granted, Larry did send me a note regarding this matter, and I 
 did give it some thought and proposed what I proposed.  My 
 problem with what Larry wrote in his first affirmative that it 
 was not specific to the subject at hand.  It dealt mainly with 
 "national holidays" and the definition of such.  Does Xmas fall 
 as specifically a "national holiday" or is there more to it?  
 Obviously there is more since the world accepts this date as the 
 birth of Christ.  My point throughout this discussion has been 
 our responsibility to keep ourselves "unspotted" from the world.  
 Meaning that we should not involve ourselves in things that 
 compromise our influence with the rest of the world!
 
 Larry then writes:  
 "Jason cannot seem to understand that one may observe a holiday 
 without observing some particular thing in regard to it."
 
 JES Here:
 Once again Larry has missed my point in the matter.  What you 
 practice regarding this is not the issue.  You may tell people 
 all day long that you do not celebrate Xmas as the Lord's birth, 
 but the displays that you use give that indication.  Larry has 
 not bothered to argue at any time throughout this discussion, 
 other than to give it a taciturn nod, my arguments regarding the 
 world's attachments to signs and symbols.  When one drives down a 
 city street if they see a red octagonal shaped sign, they know 
 immediately to stop.  Illiteracy is no excuse for running a stop 
 sign.  Nuff said on that, I think. 
 
 Larry then writes:  
 "No, Jason, that is not correct! If you asked my 8 year-old child 
 regarding it he/she would have told you it is just a holiday when 
 we get together with family and friends and exchange gifts and 
 eat together."
 
 JES Here:
 OK, Larry maybe I shouldn't have used the word "any" in my 
 sentence regarding this matter.  Let's change it to the word 
 "most 8 year-old children" and see what kind of response you get.  
 Overwhelmingly you will receive the Birth of Christ response.  
 Would that I could afford to have Mr. Gallup and his organization 
 conduct such a poll. 
 
 Larry, quoting me from my first affirmative 
 writes:  ""Also, this debate is not about whether the date 
 December 25 is the birth of Jesus Christ. I believe that my 
 opponent will grant me that fact, and without argument we can 
 move along from there." 
 
 JES Here:
 You and I both know, Larry, that Dec. 25 is not the birth of 
 Jesus Christ our Savior.  The point I am pressing goes back to 
 influence.  When an average citizen of Caneyville, Kentucky 
 (don't know exactly where it is, but anyway) drives down the 
 street and sees a house decorated in the "manner of the season" 
 what do they think?  Furthermore, Mr. Average Caneyvillian knows 
 that this is the home of Gospel Preacher, Larry A. Bunch who 
 preaches for the local church of Christ, is the message you're 
 getting across to them one of transformation from the world or 
 conformation to it?????  
 
 Larry then goes back to his definition of Xmas and says:  
 "Here is part of the definition: "usu. observed as a legal 
 holiday"! And that is how I observe it!"
 
 JES Here:
 The Congress of the United States, the Parliament of Great 
 Britain, and other governing bodies decide what days their 
 countries will observe as "national holidays."  This then gives 
 rise to the term "usual observance".  What reason was there for 
 declaring this a national holiday?  We know why July 4 is 
 considered a "national holiday" we know why the last Thursday in 
 November is considered a "national holiday" and furthermore we 
 know why December 25 is considered a "national holiday."  The 
 Congress set this day aside because of the religious world's 
 desire to have a day to celebrate the birth of Christ. When we as 
 Christians participate in the trappings of such a day we give our 
 approval to the matter.  Once again, nuff said on that.
 
 But, Larry goes on and says:  
 "Jason has the idea that one cannot celebrate a national holiday 
 without doing so for the purpose for which it was instituted! 
 Jason, as a kid I popped firecrackers on the fourth of July and 
 NEVER knew what it was for! NEVER celebrated it (at that time) as 
 the time of our nation's independence! There are millions of 
 folks who observe the twenty-fifth of December without doing so 
 as a religious observance (Atheists and Jews)!"
 
 JES Here:
 What did Paul say regarding ignorance in Acts 17?  No excuse!  
 that's what he proposed....  Those "millions of folks" who Larry 
 refers to, in this country at least, make up a minority.  I would 
 propose even that in countries where this day is a "national 
 holiday" that such is the case in most if not all.  Once again, 
 and I keep saying "nuff said" but apparently not "nuff" has been 
 said, it is influence, Larry, what about those you're trying to 
 teach out of religious error?  What about being a "peculiar" 
 people?  
 
 Larry then spends some time quoting Clement Moore's "'Twas the 
 Night Before Xmas," and Robert C. May's "Rudolph the Red Nosed 
 Reindeer."  I won't print them all out here, but I will post his 
 question as he finishes his posting 
 
 "Larry Here: You know what? I didn't see anything at all 
 religious about that! And how about Rudolph the red-nosed 
 reindeer? Is he supposed to be a representation of a religious 
 observance? Maybe he was one of the figures at the manger scene! 
 Jason is just as wrong as he can be about the matter!"
 
 JES Here:
 The now defunct department store, Montgomery Ward, is the mother 
 of Rudolph, I spent several years of my life working for that 
 company.  Perhaps that explains some of the grey hair in my young 
 head.  Rudolph is an advertising gimmick.  Why were these two 
 things, Rudolph and "Twas the Night" created?  Because of the 
 observance by the world of the Birth of Christ.  They were added 
 to it.  No, there's nothing religious about Rudolph, except to 
 say that he was designed and created by Mr. May to get more well-
 intentioned religious and "non-religious" obeservers of this 
 holiday to spend more money in a particular store on this 
 holiday.  The question still remains Why was this "national 
 holiday" created?  Answer that question please, Larry.....
 
 Larry then writes: 
 "And that, Jason, is the crux of the matter! I am affirming that 
 I observe Xmas in a MANNER that does not violate God's Word and 
 does not lend a religious flavor to my observance of Xmas. Using 
 your argumentation, you will have to no longer observe July 4 
 because folks get drunk on that day and others might think you 
 observe it in the same way! You cannot observe Thanksgiving 
 because folks might think you are a glutton!"
 
 JES Here:
 Larry, people know that I don't get drunk on July 4.  The average 
 observer can see this.  There is no alcohol on my breath, there 
 is not a single beer can in my front yard, for years the Stringer 
 family held their family reunion on July 4, and it could be seen 
 by the song books going into the community center ("Sacred 
 Selections For the Church" was what we usually used) that this 
 was a wholesome celebration of a family.  On the other hand, the 
 average observer who sees every house in the neighborhood 
 decorated up in the same manner as those who observe Dec. 25 
 religiously is not able to make that distinction!  They just 
 can't see it!  Once again, Larry, you need that big sign in your 
 front yard stating you don't celebrate this holiday religiously, 
 and you need to be out telling people why if you're going to do 
 it! 
 
 Larry then writes: 
 "Jason is speaking of symbols. I have dealt with it 
 notwithstanding Jason's insistence that it is "time to deal with 
 them." No symbols I put up have anything to do with religion."
 
 JES Here:
 Really, this is an observance of the passover by Larry.  In 
 Larry's belief I could wear the Masonic ring that I own, as long 
 as I know there's nothing to it.  He tries to deal with this by 
 saying,  "When you wear a Masonic ring, you are proclaiming you 
 are a Mason. When I put up bright lights and Frosty I am 
 proclaiming I am observing a national holiday but NOT that I am 
 doing so in a religious sense!" But, Larry, I am not proclaiming 
 that I am a Mason.  Maybe I just like the colors of the ring and 
 the way it looks, much the way you like the way Frosty and Santa 
 Claus look.  I don't go down to the lodge hall weekly and observe 
 the rites of Masonry.  Yet you observe all the rites of Xmas, 
 save one, and say that it's different?  How so?  Please 
 explain.....
 
 Then Larry writes:  
 "So long as I do not put up certain symbols of religion (manger 
 scene, angels, etc.) then someone seeing bright lights and Frosty 
 in and around the front of my house need not think I am observing 
 a religious holiday."
 
 JES Here:
 This is the crux of many words and much space used by Larry in 
 his last affirmative.  Larry still fails to realize the influence 
 and importance that those around him put on symbols.  He fails to 
 understand that he is compromising his influence.  He fails to 
 think of the reason these symbols came about.  I would not, do 
 not, and have not, worn that Masonic Ring I own in public or even 
 at home.  Why?  Because of the symbolism of it.  Yet Larry puts 
 up the trappings of a holiday that was designed with a RELIGIOUS 
 intent (the holiday itself, not Larry's symbolds), and says he is 
 not observing it in a religious manner.  In his mind, I have no 
 doubt that he feels that way; however, I still contend he's not 
 thinking of the influence that he has on those around him.
 
 Larry writes in regard to his influence: 
 "(sigh) This influence/example thing is a bone of contention for 
 Jason to gnaw on and worry over. I have explained again and again 
 that it is impossible to always do things in a manner meeting the 
 approval of EVERYONE! To state that I don't care about my 
 influence is attributing to me something evil that is not true."
 
 JES Here:
 Larry, I am not talking about winning everyone's approval.  
 However, I am talking about WILLFULLY compromising your influence 
 on them.  Where does your observance fall into the command to 
 "Shun every appearance of evil"?  I have raised the dander of 
 several bosses in my time because I refuse to answer the phone at 
 work by saying, "Merry Christmas and thank you for calling . . . 
 .. ." or "Happy Holidays and thank you for calling . . . . ."  
 Why?  One boss threatened to write me up and put it in my 
 personnel file that I was insubordinate because I refused.  The 
 reason being that I did not want to compromise what influence I 
 may have had with anyone I talked to regarding what this holiday 
 was truly about:  Man's misguided attempts to observe a date that 
 is man made and not God ordained.  In good conscience, Larry, I 
 cannot do it, and don't see how others who claim Christ and to 
 want to help their neighbors and friends attain salvation can 
 compromise themselves in such a manner.   We go back to the song 
 I have quoted several times:  "We are the only Bible the Careless 
 World will read. . . ."  What are they reading when they see such 
 displays Larry?  That's the question.
 
 Brotherly,
 
 Jason E. Stringer