Stringer/Bunch Debate on Christmas

 
 
 Proposition: 
 The Christian may celebrate December 25th as a 
 national holiday.
 
 Affirm:  Larry Bunch
 Deny:  Jason Stringer
 
 Greetings from Larry A. Bunch in Caneyville KY!
 
 It seems my affirmation must be in the form of negating Jason's 
 negative to my first affirmation!
 
 Jason is "a little confused as to exactly where Larry is going 
 with his first affirmative" so we'll try to clear it up for him.
 
 Jason also referred to "Larry's definition of" when the 
 definitions were taken from a dictionary on my computer. There 
 were a few comments of mine regarding the definitions and we will 
 try to respond to Jason's objection to them as we review his 
 negative.
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 Larry is trying to couch his arguments in terms that no one can 
 disagree with, and in so doing he misses the point of my 
 objections to the Christian "celebrating" this holiday.
 
 Larry Here: 
 Jason was warned regarding the proposition he signed to negate! I 
 wrote him on Nov.6, ""The Christian may celebrate December 25th 
 as a national holiday." You might want to modify it (I know I 
 would!)" Jason responded, "Resolved:  It is sinful for the 
 Christian to engage in the traditional observation of December 
 25th, including erecting trees, decorating trees, attending 
 "Christmas Parties", exchanging cards and gifts, exchanging 
 "Holiday Greetings," and decorating their home with lights and 
 ornaments specific to this holiday." I did not want such a long 
 and involved proposition so he signed the one I proposed. He 
 wants me to not change my opinion or understanding when I 
 acknowledged I did not get the whole gist of his definitions, now 
 he is crying because of what I wrote in my affirmation - simply 
 affirming what the proposition says!
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 I have no qualm with a Christian celebrating a "National 
 Holiday," such as July 4, . . .George Birthington's Washday, etc. . . .
 
 Larry Here: 
 I really don't know about George Birthington's Washday, but I 
 understand what Jason means:>)
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 <. . . What event was this holiday established to commemorate?>
 
 Larry Here: 
 Jason cannot seem to understand that one may observe a holiday 
 without observing some particular thing in regard to it.
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 Ask any 8 year-old child you come across what people are 
 celebrating when it comes to this "holiday" and they will tell 
 you the birth of Christ.>
 
 Larry Here: 
 No, Jason, that is not correct! If you asked my 8 year-old child 
 regarding it he/she would have told you it is just a holiday when 
 we get together with family and friends and exchange gifts and 
 eat together.
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 Herein is the problem:  There is no command, example, or 
 inference that Larry can site in the New Testament that tells us 
 to commemorate the Birth of Christ. I asked him to do it earlier 
 in this discussion and he dropped the argument like a lead 
 balloon.
 
 Larry Here: 
 Jason is really bearing down on me and I have (I thought) used 
 kid gloves in response. The gloves come off now! Jason, is your 
 memory faulty? Perhaps you need to go back and read our previous 
 discussions! Here is what you wrote in your first affirmative: 
 "Also, this debate is not about whether the date December 25 is 
 the birth of Jesus Christ. I believe that my opponent will grant 
 me that fact, and without argument we can move along from there." 
 Now don't accuse me of dropping it like a lead balloon!
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 Then Larry tries to get clever and defines Christmas thusly: "6) 
 To be fair about the matter, we define "Christmas": [ME 
 Christemasse, fr. OE Cristes mæsse, lit., Christ's mass] 1. . .>
 
 Larry Here: 
 Jason is real good at impugning my motives and using epithets 
 that are unpleasant. "tries to get clever" ? Jason, I really 
 could do without such as this!
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 But he sees that will destroy his arguments so he adds this 
 footnote: "When I speak of celebrating the 25th of December, I am 
 speaking of doing so as a national holiday."
 
 Larry Here: 
 Here is part of the definition: "usu. observed as a legal 
 holiday"! And that is how I observe it!
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 Which is it, Larry?  A commemoration of the Birth of Christ, or a 
 National Holiday? You're trying to have your cake and eat it too.  
 Your own definition here does not allow for your interpretation. 
 . .>
 
 Larry Here: 
 Jason has the idea that one cannot celebrate a 
 national holiday without doing so for the purpose for which it 
 was instituted! Jason, as a kid I popped firecrackers on the 
 fourth of July and NEVER knew what it was for! NEVER celebrated 
 it (at that time) as the time of our nation's independence! There 
 are millions of folks who observe the twenty-fifth of December 
 without doing so as a religious observance (Atheists and Jews)!
 
 'Twas the Night Before Christmas
 by Clement C. Moore
 'Twas the night before Christmas,
 when all through the house 
 Not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse; 
 The stockings were hung by the chimney with care,
 In hopes that St. Nicholas soon would be there;
 The children were nestled all snug in their beds,
 While visions of sugar-plums danced in their heads;
 And mamma in her 'kerchief, and I in my cap,
 Had just settled down for a long winter's nap,
 When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,
 I sprang from the bed to see what was the matter.
 
 Away to the window I flew like a flash,
 Tore open the shutters and threw up the sash.
 The moon on the breast of the new-fallen snow
 Gave the lustre of mid-day to objects below,
 When, what to my wondering eyes should appear,
 But a miniature sleigh, and eight tiny reindeer,
 With a little old driver, so lively and quick,
 I knew in a moment it must be St. Nick.
 More rapid than eagles his coursers they came,
 And he whistled, and shouted, and called them by name;
 
 Now, Dasher! now, Dancer! Now, Prancer and Vixen!
 On, Comet! On Cupid! On, Donner and Blitzen!
 To the top of the porch! to the top of the wall!
 Now dash away! dash away! dash away all!
 
 As dry leaves that before the wild hurricane fly,
 When they meet with an obstacle, mount to the sky,
 So up to the house-top the coursers they flew,
 With the sleigh full of toys, and St. Nicholas too.
 And then, in a twinkling, I heard on the roof
 The prancing and pawing of each little hoof.
 As I drew in my hand, and was turning around,
 Down the chimney St. Nicholas came with a bound.
 
 He was dressed all in fur, from his head to his foot,
 And his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot;
 A bundle of toys he had flung on his back,
 And he looked like a peddler just opening his pack.
 His eyes -- how they twinkled! His dimples how merry!
 His cheeks were like roses, his nose like a cherry!
 His droll little mouth was drawn up like a bow,
 And the beard of his chin was as white as the snow;
 
 The stump of a pipe he held tight in his teeth,
 And the smoke it encircled his head like a wreath;
 He had a broad face and a little round belly,
 That shook, when he laughed like a bowlful of jelly.
 He was chubby and plump, a right jolly old elf,
 And I laughed when I saw him, in spite of myself;
 A wink of his eye and a twist of his head,
 Soon gave me to know I had nothing to dread;
 
 He spoke not a word, but went straight to his work,
 And filled all the stockings; then turned with a jerk,
 And laying his finger aside of his nose,
 And giving a nod, up the chimney he rose;
 He sprang to his sleigh, to his team gave a whistle,
 And away they all flew like the down of a thistle.
 But I heard him exclaim, ere he drove out of sight,
 "Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good-night!"
 
 Larry Here: 
 You know what? I didn't see anything at all religious about that! 
 And how about Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer? Is he supposed to 
 be a representation of a religious observance? Maybe he was one 
 of the figures at the manger scene! Jason is just as wrong as he 
 can be about the matter!
 
 Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer
 
 You know Dasher, and Dancer, and Prancer, and Vixen,
 Comet, and Cupid, and Donner and Blitzen
 But do you recall The most famous reindeer of all
 Rudolph, the red-nosed reindeer had a very shiny nose
 and if you ever saw it you would even say it glows.
 All of the other reindeer used to laugh and call him names
 They never let poor Rudolph play in any reindeer games.
 Then one foggy Christmas eve Santa came to say:
 "Rudolph with your nose so bright, won't you guide my sleigh tonight?"
 Then all the reindeer loved him as they shouted out with glee,
 Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer, you'll go down in history!
 
 Larry Here: 
 Hey, I think I've got it now! If you subscribe to either "poems" 
 (above) and celebrate Dec.25 in any way, you think that the jolly 
 old elf guided the three wise men by having Rudolph lead the way! 
 The three wise men thought Rudolph's nose was a star! So if I put 
 Rudolph on my front yard he is a part of a religious scene and so 
 I'm wrong in doing this. I guess Rudolph was at the manger scene 
 with the three wise men (see Matt.1:11 "house"). Now, isn't that 
 silly? So is Jason's silly objection to the observation of Dec.25 
 "in any way"!
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 The MANNER in which one observes a national holiday can be 
 displeasing to God. Many people get drunk on the 4th of July.  Is 
 this pleasing to God?  Many people become gluttons on 
 Thanksgiving.  Is this pleasing to God?  A lot of people put 
 decorations around their home for Christmas that give the 
 impression that they are celebrating it as the Birth of Christ, 
 is this pleasing to God?
 
 Larry Here: 
 And that, Jason, is the crux of the matter! (As you are fond of 
 saying.) I am affirming that I observe Xmas in a MANNER that does 
 not violate God's Word and does not lend a religious flavor to my 
 observance of Xmas. Using your argumentation, you will have to no 
 longer observe July 4 because folks get drunk on that day and 
 others might think you observe it in the same way! You cannot 
 observe Thanksgiving because folks might think you are a glutton!
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 Now it's time to deal with them.
 
 Larry Here: 
 Jason is speaking of symbols. I have dealt with it 
 notwithstanding Jason's insistence that it is "time to deal with 
 them." No symbols I put up have anything to do with religion.
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 if you don't care about your influence over others, I can't help 
 that other than to tell you that you're wrong and you're going to 
 have to answer for it.
 
 Larry Here: 
 (sigh) This influence/example thing is a bone of contention for 
 Jason to gnaw on and worry over. I have explained again and again 
 that it is impossible to always do things in a manner meeting the 
 approval of EVERYONE! To state that I don't care about my 
 influence is attributing to me something evil that is not true.
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 I hate sounding like a broken record, but here it goes again. 
 What "you" think is not important.  What do the people you might 
 have an influence for truth on think?  I suppose I can wear my 
 Masonic Ring
 
 Larry Here: 
 When you wear a Masonic ring, you are proclaiming you are a 
 Mason. When I put up bright lights and Frosty I am proclaiming I 
 am observing a national holiday but NOT that I am doing so in a 
 religious sense!
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 Then, Larry backtracks some more by writing: "We simply observe 
 it as it is "usually observed," as a legal holiday."
 
 Larry Here: 
 Backtracks? Really, Jason, you would do better to leave off such 
 insinuations although I'm really not sure what you are 
 insinuating here! I didn't "backtrack" in that I changed my mind 
 about something or that I had said I observed Dec.25 in a way 
 other than a legal holiday!
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 Why not pick another date for giving gifts and family get 
 together?  Because this is the traditional day for Christmas.
 
 Larry Here: 
 Jason, we have changed the date of our family get-together. It is 
 December 30. But that won't satisfy you because we have to do 
 things just in the way you want them done and no other. You are 
 still going to judge us as wrong because we exchange gifts, put 
 up an evergreen tree and have a Frosty cut-out in the front yard!
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 Your not observing it in the manner that you observe "any other 
 holiday" including the ones that you mentioned . . . do you wish 
 people you meet a "Merry CHRISTmas"?  Why?  Because everyone else 
 is doing it.  I believe when you say this you are taking the name 
 of the Lord in vain!
 
 Larry Here: 
 And I believe you ought to ask God for forgiveness in judging me 
 in such a manner! You are making assumptions you know nothing 
 about! No, I do not greet folks with "Merry Xmas" but I do send 
 cards wishing them a "Happy Holiday"! The very audacity of 
 charging me with saying something when you know nothing about it! 
 And yes, Jason, I observe Dec.25 just like I do July 4-as a 
 national holiday. That is what we are talking about. Of course I 
 do not pop firecrackers on Dec.25 and I do not exchange gifts on 
 July 4. But I observe them in the same way-non-religious, 
 sectarian, national holiday.
 
 I wrote: Then Larry ends it by saying this: "I started to address 
 some objections to the Christian observing this day, but on 
 further reflection it seems prudent to wait for Jason's 
 negative."
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 OK, Larry, why not?  Are you afraid you can't address the 
 objections? The objections are there. Now it's up to you to deal 
 with them.
 
 Larry Here: 
 Jason, many statements you have made in your first negative has 
 raised my ire and caused me to almost become angry. Afraid? That 
 is ridiculous! The only reason I did not address any objections 
 is to give you the opportunity of making them so I could address 
 them without dealing with something you do not believe and so 
 impugn your ideals. I thought that was a high and lofty reason! 
 I'll post below what I had written for my first affirmative and 
 then deleted.
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 Larry tries to be cagey and clever
 
 Larry Here: 
 When I questioned something Jason wrote, I couched it in a way to 
 show I could possibly be mistaken. For example, regarding the 
 definition of observing this holiday, I wrote (words 
 approximate): "I surely hope Jason did not write this the way he 
 did to try and trip me up!" But Jason leaves no doubt about what 
 he thinks are my motives and attitude! Jason, you need to repent!
 
 Here is what I wrote for the first affirmative and then deleted 
 (saved to use in response to Jason if he used such objections):
 
 Objections made by some:
 
 A) Observing the holiday by putting up bright lights, a tree, 
 Santa and other items usually associated with Xmas [but not of a 
 religious nature] is wrong because some folks get the idea that 
 you are celebrating Dec.25th in honor of Christ and as His 
 birthday.
 
 While we should conduct ourselves so as to be an example to the 
 world around us, it is ludicrous to insist that we conform our 
 lives to counter the whim of everyone. My observance of 
 Thanksgiving might give some the idea that I believe this is a 
 special Holy Day I must observe but that does not make it wrong 
 for me to observe it. Some might get the idea that I am a rebel 
 against the government because I celebrate July 4th but that does 
 not mean that I must refrain from that observance.
 
 So long as I do not put up certain symbols of religion (manger 
 scene, angels, etc.) then someone seeing bright lights and Frosty 
 in and around the front of my house need not think I am observing 
 a religious holiday.
 
 B) Some even object to Santa Claus as being a religious figure! 
 noun [modif. of D Sinterklaas, alter. of Sint Nikolaas Saint 
 Nicholas] : a plump white-bearded and red-suited old man in 
 modern folklore who delivers presents to good children at 
 Christmastime - called also Santa (c)1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. and 
 Merriam-Webster, Incorporated.  All rights reserved. This 
 objection cannot be valid since all folks do not "use" this 
 figure in a religious sense.
 
 It cannot be objected to on the basis of it being "false" (a 
 "lie" as some declare!) because while this is not a true figure 
 and the things he is represented as doing cannot be done, we 
 place it in the category of a  "story" like Snow White and the 
 Seven Dwarfs or Donald Duck or Superman or numberless other tales 
 and fables. (The Bible even has trees talking and clapping their 
 hands and the mountains shouting! See 1Chron.16:33 Then shall the 
 trees of the wood sing out at the presence of the LORD, because 
 he cometh to judge the earth.; Isa.55:12 ". . . The mountains and 
 the hills will break forth into shouts of joy before you, And all 
 the trees of the field will clap [their] hands.)
 
 It cannot be objected to on the basis of "Saint Nicholas" because 
 that would mean we cannot go to St. Louis or watch The Saint 
 television program or movie (note: of course some may regard 
 these things as being wrong too!). Old Saint Nicholas is no 
 longer such in the view of (I believe most) folks today, he is 
 simply "Santa," a jolly fat elf who rides in a sleigh pulled by 
 reindeer and flies through the sky landing on housetops to 
 deliver presents by going down the chimney.
 
 --brotherly, Larry (3081 words)