Stringer/Bunch Debate on Christmas

 
 
 Proposition: 
 It is sinful for the Christian to celebrate the holiday known as 
 Christmas, even if they attach no religious significance to it.
 
 Affirmed: Jason E. Stringer
 Denied:   Larry Bunch
 
 I agreed with Jason's definitions and Jason Wrote: 
 4. Christmas:  December 25 of each calendar year, designated by 
 the world as the birthday of Jesus Christ
 Jason continues: 
 This is significant in that Larry accepts the fact that the 
 "world", meaning a majority of people in the religious world who 
 claim to be Christians, accept this date as Christ's birth.
 
 Larry Writes: 
 I am sorry I agreed with Jason's definitions, and surely hope he 
 did not purposely define it as he did with the intent of 
 ~trapping~ me! I do not claim to be a debater but will try and 
 defend what I believe. I just missed Jason's particular slant on 
 his definition and must disagree with him! Our proposition states 
 that we are debating a holiday irrespective of any religious 
 connotations! One brother wrote me, ". . . a court case came down 
 last year when someone objected to Christmas being a holiday 
 because it was 'religious,' hence, a violation of separation of 
 church and state.  The judge rejected the case because she 
 determined that Christmas has become a social holiday and is 
 celebrated without the religious implications.  I can attest to 
 the fact that Hindus, even Jews, also celebrate Christmas for its 
 social reasons." Another brother wrote, ". . . it is not true 
 that the world knows the religious significance of xmas...FACT, 
 Many Jewish people celebrate xmas now...instead of Santa Clause 
 though, they call him "Father Xmas." Cleo Wrap, biggest producer 
 of xmas paper in the world is owned by Jews. Many atheists 
 celebrate xmas as a national holiday."
 
 Regarding other days that were named for religious significance, 
 such as Sunday (Sun god), Jason wrote: 
 Come on, Larry, you're making a non-argument here, and you know 
 it.
 
 Larry Writes: 
 No, Jason, I don't know it! You seem to be pretty good at putting 
 words in my mouth, knowing my mind, etc. Again, I am not a 
 debater, professional or otherwise, and I do not know that I was 
 making a non-argument nor do I know it yet!
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 You agreed to the definition of Christmas, and you can't go 
 changing your mind now.
 
 Larry Writes: 
 Jason, I most certainly ~can~ change my mind! If I ~missed~ it 
 before and believe it is not in harmony with what I believe, then 
 I will and do change my mind!
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 We are talking about a majority of people here.
 
 Larry Writes: 
 Jason, I'm not sure we are and even if we were I don't believe 
 that makes any difference. If someone sees a snowman in my yard, 
 bright lights and an evergreen tree, they may ~not~ -- 
 ~rightfully~ -- ascribe to me as believing in something with a 
 religious significance or engaging in a religious observance of 
 the national holiday of Xmas. However, if I set up a manger 
 scene, then they may rightfully say I observe it religiously. 
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 You cannot have an influence on people if your life is not above 
 reproach on something that many of them believe to be the case.
 
 Larry Writes: 
 Jason, would you kindly explain to me why I am in reproach 
 because I observe a national holiday on December 25th? Now, if 
 someone saw me going into a liquor store and carrying a brown bag 
 out, this will (should) bring reproach upon me.
 Jason Wrote: 
 I notice you leave my argument about my former habit of smoking 
 alone.
 
 Larry Writes: 
 Yes, and I will continue to leave it alone. An entirely different 
 subject and if it is as you report then folks ought to be 
 withdrawn from for doing it. You ae wanting to equate the 
 observance of a national holiday with the doing of something that 
 is evil, wicked, bad, corrupt, morally bankrupt, and whatever. 
 None of these descriptive terms may be attributed to a national 
 holiday.
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 The example you set, whether you mean to or not, when you put up 
 displays of this season shows them that you are in agreement with 
 them.
 
 Larry Writes: 
 If what I do is lawful (scripturally so), it makes no difference 
 what others think about the matter! As long as it does not lead 
 them into that which is sinful. I practice baptism. I don't worry 
 about folks thinking I might be a Baptist! When I baptize 
 someone, I sometimes say, "I now baptize you by the authority of 
 Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins." I don't worry that 
 someone might say that I am a "Jesus Only" advocate. If I say, "I 
 baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the 
 Holy Spirit for the remission of your sins." I do not worry that 
 someone might think I am Catholic. For folks to make the wrong 
 assumption regarding my observance of December 25th does not lead 
 anyone into sin nor propagate any error. From your argumentation, 
 using your "logic," I had better not celebrate the 4th of July 
 either.  After all, I would be endorsing those colonists that 
 rebelled against England and violated Romans 13! Folks might get 
 the idea that I believe in armed rebellion against the 
 government!
 
 Regarding this matter of example and the fact that someone will 
 object to anything you do, Jason wrote: 
 I agree that there is a limit, but I believe in setting up the 
 displays you put up you go beyond the limit.
 
 Larry Writes: 
 Jason, who determines the limit? Is it arbitrary? Or is it 
 because you ~think~ this is beyond the limit, so be it?
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 Halloween:  Personally, I don't put up any decorations, and I 
 don't hand out any candy.  However, this holiday is not PERCEIVED 
 by the MAJORITY of people to be a religious holiday, Xmas is.
 
 Larry Writes: 
 So, it is okay if it is ~not~ a ~majority~! Jason, it makes no 
 difference if it is a majority or minority, if it is wrong, we 
 can't do it! From your argumentation, I had better not observe 
 Halloween lest someone get the idea that I am a Satanist, or 
 believe in ghosts roaming the earth, or that there really is a 
 Dracula, and ad infinitum! You say  Oh yes it 
 is!! The majority of teens ~know~ that this is considered by 
 modern day witches, church of Satan members and cultists as being 
 a religious ~holy~ day! (the only higher holy day in Satanic 
 circles is ones own birthday....perhaps we better not have a 
 birthday either! After all, the only birthday party in the Bible 
 was Herod's when he had John's head removed!) When a preacher I 
 know lived in NM (a state with a large Satanic population) it was 
 understood that no Bible believer participated in Halloween in 
 his town (there were 3 active witch covens ) and even the police 
 would announce to keep your pets in that week lest they be 
 sacrificed! I must point out, also, that should I live in a 
 country (like Mexico) where Xmas is seen ~only~ as religious, 
 then I would not so observe Xmas since it is a religious holiday 
 rather than national one there.
 
 Jason wrote: 
 Long and short skirts:  Really not even worthy of consideration.  
 Larry knows in his heart that this isn't going to happen, but as 
 long as his wife follows God's law of modesty then that is fine.
 
 Larry Writes: 
 Jason, you are reading my mind again! However, that isn't in my 
 mind (that this isn't going to happen), so I guess you are not 
 ~really~ reading it! I "know in" my "heart that this isn't going 
 to happen"? You are sure that is in my heart? Wrong! It does 
 ~happen~!
 
 Jason wrote: 
 Easter: . .
 
 Larry Writes: 
 I suppose I should not have used that example, because the same 
 is true regarding it as is concerning Xmas. I ~celebrate~ (when 
 our kids were home) Easter with Easter eggs, bunnies and things 
 of the kind. No religious connotation whatever. Jason, let's 
 agree to leave this out of the discussion and, again, I'm sorry I 
 brought it up!
 
 Then Larry writes:  
 "So, you see, there is no way we can live so 
 as to ~please~ everyone - nor should we try! To ~answer~ this, 
 Jason wrote about a piano in the auditorium to pitch songs.
 
 Larry Writes: 
 Not a valid argument. We are not talking about putting a tree or 
 a Santa or anything else in the auditorium. I would object to the 
 piano being put there for ~any~ reason! And that is another 
 discussion also!
 
 Jason wrote: 
 Romans 14 . . . the point I make about Xmas being a "meat offered 
 to idols" is lost on you, I guess.
 
 Larry Writes: 
 Yes, it is lost on me. Romans chapter fourteen has nothing to do 
 with meat offered to idols. If you want to pursue that line, you 
 will have to find a different passage.
 
 Jason wrote: 
 If I am not mistaken, bro. John sent a message lifting the word 
 count limit some time ago.  If I stepped out of line I 
 apologize.
 
 Larry Writes: 
 No need to apologize, the word limit was indeed lifted. I simply 
 like to know the word count and thought others would too. (I was 
 more ~wordy~ than you so if it reflects on anyone it would be 
 me!:>)
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 Brethren, here is my point:  How do we expect to have an 
 influence on those around about us when we engage in the same 
 activities they engage in?
 
 Larry Writes: 
 We do many things that others in the world do and that does not 
 make the doing of those things worldly or wrong! I buy groceries 
 at the same store the atheist buys them. I purchase popcorn on 
 the same isle that beer is sold on, but that doesn't make 
 purchasing popcorn sinful! It is simply impossible to separate 
 many things from what others do and the doing of them does not 
 automatically make them wrong, sinful or worldly.
 
 Larry Wrote: 
 I fail to see what Rom.1:31 has to do with it.
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 No, Larry the connotation is that you are going along with the 
 practice of the rest of the world.
 
 Larry Writes: 
 Rom.1:31 "without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, 
 unmerciful;" Jason, I may be dense, but I can't see what this has 
 to do with what you are saying! Now, if you are accusing me of 
 being "without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, 
 unmerciful;" then I could see it, but I do not think that is what 
 you are saying.
 
 Jason Wrote: 
 You're not taking a stand and being "Transformed" from this 
 world.
 
 Larry Writes: 
 This comes under the heading of what we have already discussed 
 regarding our example. Being ~transformed~ from this world is 
 leaving worldly, sinful things behind and being conformed to the 
 image of our Lord. It seems to be (though, again, I'm not a 
 professional debater) that such is begging the issue to say that 
 one is not ~transformed~ from this world when they engage in a 
 national observance of December 25th.
 
 My daughter wrote, "The only thing I can say about Christmas is 
 that we have always been taught that it is not Jesus' birthday. 
 We've always done Christmas with Santa. There was never anything 
 'religious' on our tree or in our house. When we took our kids to 
 see the Christmas lights and there was a 'manger scene' in the 
 yard I always looked at that as a good time to teach my kids. We 
 told them that some people believe that Jesus was born on 
 Dec.25th, but the Bible does not tell us that. Therefore we 
 celebrate the birth of Christ and His death every day of the 
 year. I think that if someone feels it is wrong to have Christmas 
 then they shouldn't. But, I don't think they can say that we are 
 sinning if we do. As far as others looking at my house with 
 lights on it and 'assuming' that I celebrate Jesus birth on that 
 day--I think that if I live my life the way I should every day of 
 the year they will see that I am a Christian. Then what is on my 
 house shouldn't matter. It is what is in my heart that counts. 
 I'm not as smart as other people when it comes to this stuff but 
 aren't most holidays pagan? Is it just Christmas that people have 
 trouble with just because some loony tune decided it was a good 
 day to celebrate Jesus' birth?"
 
 Larry continues: 
 My own upbringing was minus a religious education. We did not go 
 to church, yet we celebrated Xmas every year! At Grandpa's house 
 the whole Bunch family (Uncles, Aunts, Nieces, Nephews, and all) 
 gathered together to have a Xmas tree - and Santa came and gave 
 out presents from under the tree. One year especially sticks in 
 my memory-one of my cousins slipped off an icy road in the Texas 
 panhandle on his way to Southwest Oklahoma and turned his car 
 over. Along came some other folks and they set the car upright 
 and he came on it! (It was a VW bug!) There was never anything 
 religious attached to Xmas, it was a time for the whole Bunch 
 family to get together! Each year Dad and another family friend 
 that lived in town (Lone Wolf) took both families north about 6-8 
 miles from our home to a little country church (Methodist) to get 
 bags of candy "Santa" handed out. (The same Santa that went to 
 Grandpa's house - the local county commissioner, a close friend 
 of the family whose sister married one of my Uncles, and I never 
 knew he was paid for playing Santa!) I never associated that with 
 a religious observance (in fact, I don't think I even knew until 
 I was an adult that the little building we went to was a church! 
 I thought it was a place where all the farmers in the area got 
 together for the children to receive candy-I did not even know 
 that my Dad had to pay for the candy!).
 
 Folks, December 25th is a national holiday and a time for 
 families to get together and exchange gifts with no religious 
 connotations whatsoever. One cannot scripturally or logically 
 object to doing this.
 
 --brotherly, Larry (2444 words) (Jason had 2030 words)