Stringer/Bunch Debate on Christmas

 
 
 Proposition: 
 It is sinful for the Christian to celebrate the holiday known as 
 Christmas, even if they attach no religious significance to it.
 
 Affirmed: Jason E. Stringer
 Denied:   Larry Bunch
 
 I appreciate Larry's willingness to stand up for what he believes 
 on this matter even though I disagree with him vehemently about 
 it.  Without further ado, I will get into what Larry wrote in 
 answer to my first affirmative, and make a  few other comments.
 
 Larry Writes: 
 I see nothing amiss in Jason's definitions.
 
 Jason writes:  
 Thank you, Larry, since you see nothing wrong with them we will 
 not discuss them further except for the importance they have to 
 what we are talking about, for I defined the word "Christmas" as:
 
 4.  Christmas:  December 25 of each calendar year, designated by 
 the world as the birthday of Jesus Christ
 
 This is significant in that Larry accepts the fact that the 
 "world", meaning a majority of people in the religious world who 
 claim to be Christians, accept this date as Christ's birth.  When 
 Larry puts up a tree or lights lights around his house or wears 
 his Santa pin, is he not going along with the rest of them, 
 giving his approval to what they're doing.  Especially if he 
 doesn't say anything?
 
 Larry writes, quoting me: 
 "Jason Wrote: This debate is also not about observation of a 
 national holiday as my opponent would believe, this debate IS 
 about what a Christian may do in observance of a day that the 
 rest of the world views with high religious significance."
 
 Then writes this in answer:  
 "Larry Writes: Jason has presupposed  some of my arguments and I 
 guess this is okay but it does ~not~ reflect ~how~ I will answer 
 his proposition!"
 
 Jason writes:  
 I didn't presuppose anything, Larry, I am going by the negative 
 proposition that you signed.  This will be discussed when we come 
 to that point, I suppose.
 
 Larry Writes: 
 Jason wrote  and then starts out 
 discussing this very thing! So, I am going to assume that what he 
 means about the  is in regards to what he 
 and I believe is the truth about the matter (regarding the birth 
 of Christ).
 
 Jason writes:  
 A correct assumption, bro. Bunch.  I am getting this out of the 
 way first and foremost.  The crux of this argument is in the next 
 section regarding the days of the week.   
 
 Larry writes in answer to that argument: 
 "How do I know no one attaches such significance to the days? How 
 do I know there are no Sun worshippers today (Sunday)? "
 
 Jason writes:  
 Come on, Larry, you're making a non-argument here, and you know 
 it.  You agreed to the definition of Christmas, and you can't go 
 changing your mind now.  We are talking about a majority of 
 people here.  A majority of people who get the wrong impression 
 from the displays that you wear or put up during this time of 
 year.  Larry, you have been a Gospel Preacher for many years. 
 While we have only met once or twice personally at meetings 
 around areas where you have preached, I know as a preacher you 
 have to be concerned about what others think about the way you 
 conduct yourself.  You cannot have an influence on people if your 
 life is not above reproach on something that many of them believe 
 to be the case.  
 
 I notice you leave my argument about my former habit of smoking 
 alone.  It's the same thing here, Larry.  People who saw me smoke 
 saw it as something that was bad, nasty, and evil.  Even if I 
 didn't see it that way, even if my conscience was clear about it 
 (though it would not be now) I had to be concerned about the 
 impression that I was leaving with others around me.  That's the 
 point, Larry.  People look at you, they look at all of us as an 
 example for them to follow.  Paul instructed us to live our lives 
 as an "ensample" or example to others.  The example you set, 
 whether you mean to or not, when you put up displays of this 
 season shows them that you are in agreement with them.  Do you 
 put a sign in your yard, or under your Santa pin that says, 
 "Celebrated only as a national  holiday, not as the birth of 
 Christ."?  Why not do so to clear up some confusion if this is 
 how you feel.
 
 Larry Writes: 
 While it is true we are to set the proper example before others, 
 there ~must~ be a ~limit~ to which we will go! Why? Because 
 ~someone~ will object to ~anything~ you do! And while I am to set 
 an example before others of my being a Christian, I do not have 
 to be guided and forced to conform my life by what everyone else 
 thinks.
 
 Jason writes:  
 I agree that there is a limit, but I believe in setting up the 
 displays you put up you go beyond the limit.  Then you proceed to 
 bring up all sorts of examples for instance:
 
 Halloween:  Personally, I don't put up any decorations, and I 
 don't hand out any candy.  However, this holiday is not PERCEIVED 
 by the MAJORITY of people to  be a religious holiday, Xmas is.
 
 Long and short skirts:  Really not even worthy of consideration.  
 Larry knows in his heart that this isn't going to happen, but as 
 long as his wife follows God's law of modesty then that is fine.
 
 Easter:  Want to debate a similar subject on that, Larry?  I put 
 that right in there with Xmas.  Larry, you know Speedy Prince 
 very well.  Ever heard the story of the time he was invited to 
 speak at the Easter Sunrise service in Lott? Given the 
 opportunity to do this what would you say?  Would you "say" that 
 the Lord wishes us to commemorate his death every first day of 
 the week, or would you "show" by letting your kids participate in 
 the activities of this holiday that you don't believe what you 
 said?
 
 Then Larry writes: 
 "So, you see, there is no way we can live so as to ~please~ 
 everyone - nor should we try!"
 
 Jason writes:  
 I am not talking about PLEASING everyone, Larry.  I am talking 
 about giving them the wrong idea about what you believe.  Suppose 
 a church in Lufkin, Texas (a town you and I are both familiar 
 with, so I'll use it for an example) goes down to Denum Piano 
 Company there on Denman Avenue in that town (this is a real place 
 for those who don't know) and purchases a small piano and puts it 
 in the auditorium.  Now, the piano  is never played except to 
 have the song leader get the right note for pitching his song.  
 Before he starts to sing he goes over and hits C or D or E to get 
 the pitch right.  Would there be anything wrong with that, Larry? 
 No worse than a pitch pipe (which by the way I use at home when I 
 am picking out songs, but don't carry to the building with me) in 
 my opinion.  But what about the way the salesman at Denum Piano 
 Co. would see it?  Or the delivery men?  Or the visitor who 
 happens to come to a Gospel Meeting?  I believe such would make 
 front page headlines on the Lufkin Daily News, or at least the 
 Saturday religious section. I don't think there would be anything 
 inherently WRONG with doing this, but what would people think?
 
 Larry Writes: 
 Jason goes ahead and says I can't appeal to Rom.14 regarding 
 this--it is talking about eating meat offered to idols. However, 
 Jason, observing ~days~ is also included (v.5 One man regards one 
 day above another, another regards every day [alike.] Let each 
 man be fully convinced in his own mind.) and there are principals 
 in Rom.14 that are applicable to many situations today. 
 
 Jason writes:  
 Romans 14 does not apply hear because this is not the subject 
 being dealt with in the passage.  And the point I make about Xmas 
 being a "meat offered to idols" is lost on you, I guess.  Go back 
 to the definition of Xmas, Larry that was given at the beginning 
 of the 1st affirmative.  The WORLD sees this as the  birthday of 
 Christ.  The pagans dealt with by Paul regarding meat offered to 
 idols saw the meat as something sacred.  Paul said he would not 
 partake of such because of it.  Hmmmmmmm......Me thinks the same 
 thing would apply here.  
 
 Larry then writes: 
 "I fail to see what Rom.1:31 has to do with it. Wearing a Masonic 
 Ring signifies one is a Mason and Masonry is wrong. Wearing a 
 Santa on my coat lapel signifies I like old Santa and any other 
 connotations attached thereto are arbitrary."
 
 Jason writes:  
 No, Larry the connotation is that you are going along with the 
 practice of the rest of the world.  You're not taking a stand and 
 being "Transformed" from this world.  You are giving the 
 impression to those around you that you agree with their 
 practice, and that is where the sin lies.  When you arbitrarily 
 choose to wear this pin, you are arbitrarily causing people to 
 believe that you follow their teaching about this day.  Just as I 
 couldn't wear my Masonic ring because of the INFLUENCE it might 
 have on someone else.  The one that I have is turquoise, a rather 
 inexpensive on, but I like the colors, I like the silver band it 
 is in, and I like the design of the compass and square.  I 
 suppose I can justify wearing this ring with Larry's 
 justification for wearing his Santa pin!
 
 Larry writes: 
 (1510 words; Jason's had 1372 words)
 
 Jason writes:  
 If I am not mistaken, bro. John sent a message lifting the word 
 count limit some time ago.  If I stepped out of line I apologize.
 
 Brethren, here is my point: How do we expect to have an influence 
 on those around about us when we engage in the same activities 
 they engage in?  We give the world the impression that we are 
 going along with them when we do the things outlined in the 
 definition of celebrate given at the beginning of the first 
 affirmative. "Celebrate:  Including but not limited to the 
 festivities regarding this holiday such as putting up trees, 
 stringing lights, singing carols, giving gifts etc."
 
 A friend of mine, who grew up Pentecostal, and I were talking 
 recently, in fact this conversation is what led me to propose 
 this debate, and she mentioned what she was going to do for Xmas 
 this year.  I explained to her that I did not celebrate this 
 holiday.  She was shocked.  She mentioned that while growing up 
 she was friends with a family that was part of a local church in 
 the community where she lived, and that she attended Bible Class 
 on Wed. night at the church there.  She further went on to talk 
 about the wonderful Xmas parties these people had each year, and 
 how beautiful the decorations in their home were, and that she 
 had never thought about the fact that they might not be  
 celebrating it as the birth of Christ.  Watch yourselves, 
 brethren, you are the Bible the world is reading, and they're 
 reading the wrong message in regards to this issue.
 
 For the truth,
 
 Jason E. Stringer