BALLARD/STROM DEBATE ON BAPTISM

 
 
The Scriptures teaches that obedience is from the inside out. We are first changed 
in the inner man via the new birth and then the outward "good fruit" of obedience 
including Baptism results.

Thus we are born-again/saved/forgiven at the moment we confess our sins and 
accept Christ as our savior - believing in Him as our Savior is the moment of 
salvation" 
 
Affirm: Bob Strom 
Deny: Voyd N. Ballard
 
A big thanks to Voyd for engaging in portions of this discussion where he was 
able to quote my statements in context and also stay focused on scripture with 
accurate mention of it. Significant portions of this dialogue have been immensely 
informative for me in helping me discover the real areas of Bible differences 
between our views - I have provided over 50 texts in support of my views.

(A short summary of the differences will be included here). 
 
Several times Voyd has attempted to draw the dialogue far afield of our subject by 
appealing to non-Biblical sources such as Calvin and Ellen White. I remain 
determined to focus on the Bible alone for this debate - despite Voyd's best efforts 
to the contrary. (Except that I did indulge Voyd in the Cadillac fantasy that he 
proposed - obviously the imagination regarding fictional situations does not 
suffice for scripture - I should not have corrected his illustration).
 
I noted that Voyd's last response kinda melted down into 90% posturing and ad 
hominem remarks - proving the old adage "where doctrine fails, ad hominem 
prevails". But I am thankful that Voyd was able at least to start out his 
affirmatives holding the posturing and ad hominem content to a 10% minimum. I 
believe that was very productive. A good exchange of views and Biblical 
perspectives was gained while he remained focused on quoting my comments in 
context and quoting scripture when it was referenced. I say again - Bravo!!

Since Voyd no longer attempts to improve the defense of his own positions nor to 
read my responses - this affirmative #3 (in the form of a brief summary) 
concludes my part of the debate. This summary may prove helpful to someone 
from Voyd's faith who genuinely believes in Baptismal regeneration and seeks to 
provide a better defense of it. I believe the arguments presented here will either 
destroy that position or they will further build it's case when someone solves the 
apparent contradictions for Baptismal regeneration found in these texts. Either 
way - everyone wins.

Obviously - in the debate so far - I have denied Baptismal regeneration - I have 
INSTEAD promoted the Bible truth that at the moment we BELIEVE, we are 
saved. I have affirmed the Bible truth that the TREE having been CHANGED 
from a BAD tree to a GOOD one - is free (by Matt 7's standards) to produce 
GOOD fruit. BUT ONLY after that CHANGE - the New Birth, Salvation.
 
Voyd's response has been to feign confusion over my position. If that statement 
above is confusing to others on this list - I maintain that no simpler statement 
could be found for this debate, but I would welcome a suggestion.
 
Key differences between God's Word and the modern notion of "Baptismal 
regeneration".
 
Texts were quoted repeatedly in my rebuttals and affirmations, this summary will 
simply provide a brief note for the texts instead of direct quotes for brevity.

1. What does it mean to be lost?
 
Isaiah 59:1-2 Scripture clearly teaches that sin inserts a separation between God 
and man.
 
l Cor 2:14 Lost man is incapable of understanding spiritual truth. 
 
(Voyd objects by saying it is the saints that are incapable of understanding 
spiritual truth.)
 
Eph 2:1-5 Lost man is held in slavery to Satan's will
 
(Voyd objects by saying that lost people seem pretty much free to obey God here.
 
Rom 8:3-8 Lost man does not and CAN not obey God 
 
(Voyd observes the "passover" here.)

These texts are devastating to Voyd's position as they show that no depraved lost 
sinner will be capable of the good fruit of spiritual Baptism.

2. God's outreach

John 12:32 God overcomes mans depravity with supernatural drawing of all men 
(please note: John 12:32 is not John 6:44)
 
Rom 5:8 While we were yet sinners - God died for us.
 
2Cor 5:18-21 ALL these things are from God who RECONCILES us begging you 
"on behalf of Christ - BE reconciled to God" 
 
Voyd
God might fail here and then be guilty of lost souls
 
 Bob
(Voyd also contends that God is unable to do his job since lost humanity can not 
of his own free will - understand spiritual truth.)
 
Since Voyd's last argument above is a circular argument, I am not inclined to 
devote much space to it. Clearly - if God provides the SOLUTION to something – 
that SOLUTION SOLVES the problem, in this case it allows man ENOUGH 
freedom to CHOOSE to receive Christ - to YIELD to the Holy Spirit's "convicting 
the WORLD of SIN RIGHTEOUSNESS and Judgment". Yielding then results in 
further blessings from the "Spirit of Truth". Anyway - I know this is already 
obvious to all - so no further time here.
 
3. Man's only supernaturally enabled capability in that environment is the INNER 
work of CHOOSING to believe/accept/open TO Christ

Rev 3:20 Christ is standing at the hearts of door - no restrictions (of ALL MEN) 
we have only to HEAR and OPEN the heart's door.

Rom 10:9 Belief = SAVED 
John 1:12 By simply "receiving Christ" we are re-joined to God's family 
John 3:15-16 When we Believe in Christ - we are given the promise of everlasting 
life

Voyd observes the passover on anything like a careful review of these texts as 
well.
 
Voyd "believes" LOST man can not only believe, confess, repent BUT can also 
study spiritual truths, agree with God, agree with baptism and follow in lost-man-
obedience to baptism - at which point man is saved.

Voyd considers that SINCE God might fail/forget to enable man in this way - God 
would be responsible for man's failure, if these scriptures are true.

These scriptures devastate the idea that we have to do something "else" BEFORE 
God is willing to bestow the promise of salvation.

4. Man's OUTWARD works / fruit CAN ONLY come from an INNER change – 
the GOOD TREE on the INSIDE results in GOOD work on the OUTSIDE 

Matt 7:18 A bad TREE CAN NOT produce GOOD fruit. 
John 14:15 IF YOU LOVE Me - you will KEEP My commandments
 
(Voyd observes the passover on this argument as well.)
 
2Cor 5 points out that the INNER CHANGE occurs as a result of the ONE gospel 
- wherein we accept Christ.
 
John 1:12 points out that by merely receiving Christ the Gospel benefit is derived

John 3:15-16 makes the same point - with BELIEF as the key action which God 
calls for on man's part - resulting in salvation.

5. God's word is cumulative and INCLUSIVE - no part may be construed in such 
a way as to void other parts of God's truth on the same subject.

1. Rom 10:9 John 3:15-16, John 6:29 Belief = inner WORK of God = SAVED 
2. Mark 16:16 Belief + Baptism = Saved 
3. Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED

If we take #1 as a strict rule then both 2 and 3 are true as they merely ADD to that 
rule - they are not EXCLUDED-voided.

If we take #3 as the strict rule - both 1 and 2 are EXCLUDED-voided-
contradicted.
 
If we take #2 as the strict rule - #1 is EXCLUDED-voided and number 3 ADDs to 
it so it remains.
 
This demonstrates the error in SNIPPET text theology that blindly clings a self 
imposed erroneous interpretation of one text to the detriment of the rest of 
scripture. (Snippet text theology).

Voyd observes the passover here - by ignoring the obvious principle above and 
pretending that only Mark 16:16 exists.
 
6. Acts 2:38 (A single text upon which Voyd is ready to base all his theology on 
Baptism)
 
Acts 2:38 Repent + Baptized = fully prepared to receive the GIFTs of the Holy 
Spirit.
 
While the text does address the topic of WHEN you are SAVED (nor does such 
word appear in the text) Voyd rightly concludes that IN ORDER to receive the 
Holy Spirit's GIFTs you MUST already be saved and IN FELLOWSHIP (restored 
communion) with God. 
 
Therefore salvation had to already be there at SOME POINT prior to receiving 
the Holy Spirit's gifts.
 
Voyd "observes the passover" on responding to that point.
 
Voyd merely assumes (from the above) that the MOMENT of salvation must have 
occurred at Baptism (Thus arbitrarily choosing the latest point at which it 
COULD have happened if we use the text above). 

Voyd ignores the NT texts SHOWING that lost humanity - RECEIVED the Word 
of Christ and THEN received the GIFTs of the Holy Spirit BEFORE Baptism thus 
SHOWING the salvation was NOT deferred until Baptism. 

Acts 10:34-46 Voyd insists that "Repent and be Baptized in the name of Jesus 
Christ FOR the forgiveness of sins" shows that NO forgiveness is allowed until 
Baptism.
 
Luke 24:47 provides the SAME language WITHOUT Baptism. REPENT = 
FORGIVENESs "Repentance FOR the forgiveness of sins proclaimed in Jesus 
name". 

Voyd
I trust we do not need a 2 paragraph lecture on semantics of the text and what 
"FOR" means in Luke 24.

Bob
-- This is actually a new point in the debate on this segment - but I am not hopeful 
that Voyd will read this far into the summary.

7. John 3:3-8 Christ provides 3 phrases ALL showing that the SECOND birth 
(required for spiritual life) is comparable to the FIRST birth (for physical life).

vs3 - "unless one is BORN AGAIN he cannot see the kingdom of God" 

- TWO births - Physcial then spiritual - the SECOND being emphasized vs5 - 
"unless one BORN of WATER and of the SPIRIT - he cannot enter the kingdom" 
- TWO births - first WATER THEN Spirit

vs6 -" That which is BORN of FLESH - FLESHLY, that which is BORN of 
SPIRIT is spirit" --TWO Births - Physical THEN Spiritual.
 
No scripture exists that states the phrase "BORN of WATER" applies to baptism 
or is in any way a term for water Baptism 
 
Voyd initially argues that you are HALF SPIRITUALLY Born by being 
physically born and not also spiritually born at the same time. 

Voyd "observes the passover" on responding to the analysis above.

Totally unbelievable conjecture - not supported by the text above. I can't believe 
that Voyd actually believes such a conjecture would be required IF we take the 
physical/fleshly birth just as Christ directs us - and admit that it comes before one 
can be spiritually born.

Also - EVEN if one did not take care to observe Christ's OWN words about TWO 
births, first fleshly THEN spiritual - it would be hard to MISS the fact that Christ 
made no mention of the term "Baptism" nor do Bible translators insert it here. 

Christ stated this as a FACT for ALL mankind under the ONE Gospel - YEARS 
before the Cross. Christ INSISTED that ANYONE with a scintilla of knowledge 
about OT scripture should know this (vs 10) for it is a truth for ALL time under 
the ONE Gospel (Gal 1:6) the ONE plan of salvation.  Spiritual birth is required – 
(nothing said about baptism in all those ages).

It is true that men were saved/ transformed/ giants of faith (Heb 11) at all times in 
OT history. It is NOT true that they were baptized by water. So Christ's statement 
REMAINS true by not injecting the term "baptism" in where it does not belong.

8. We did not get to the point of proving from Romans 6 that water baptism has to 
be by immersion OR that 1Peter 3 proves that it must be "believers" baptism. 
However we both accept these truths and so there was little need to argue them.

9. Peter argues in 1 Peter 3:21 that Baptism SAVES - but NOT because of the 
magical saving power in the ritual of going into the WATER - BUT INSTEAD it 
is back to the INNER WORK of the heart of man appealing to God for salvation – 
RECEIVING Christ - BELIEVING - the INNER WORK of God 

John 6:29 Well it has been enjoyable and I have been greatly blessed by being 
better able to understand our differences and in fact narrowing them down to 
these pointed areas of scripture. I am saving this for future reference - thanks 
again!
 
 Bob Strom