BALLARD/STROM DEBATE ON BAPTISM

 
 
The Scriptures teaches that obedience is from the inside out. We are first changed 
in the inner man via the new birth and then the outward "good fruit" of obedience 
including Baptism results.
 
Thus we are born-again/saved/forgiven at the moment we confess our sins and 
accept Christ as our savior - believing in Him as our Savior is the moment of 
salvation" 
 
Affirm: Bob Strom 
Deny: Voyd N. Ballard 
 
Strom's 2nd AFFIRMATIVE:

Thanks to Voyd for those entertaining responses to my first Affirmative. I would 
remind Voyd that as interesting as posturing is - it is not a compelling form of 
debate if the content of the issue is of any serious concern. 

Voyd 
affirm that The Scriptures teach that the sinner is saved by faith alone, before and 
without baptism. But just take a good look at the jumbled mess he now says he is 
affirming.

Bob
While I have denied the assertions you have made about Baptism standing 
between the lost sinner and salvation, I have not taken the alternative to your 
position that you desired me to take in every case. I was also a bit surprised that 
you were willing to call the mere act of "believing" Christ as "works" - as you 
pointed out in your reference to John 6. I THOUGHT you were going to argue 
that BAPTISM was the work that had to accompany faith.

Voyd
Evidently, I convinced him in my first three posts that he could not sustain the 
proposition, so he has changed it

Bob
It is ONLY because you accepted the truth that BELIEF ITSELF is the WORK 
(as you point out in John 6) INSTEAD of arguing that Baptism was the WORK 
that needed to be united with faith - that I specify that the INTERNAL work of 
BELIEF IS in fact that WORK that is required AT the moment of salvation. 
However that was an entirely different topic from the one of the work of Baptism, 
and I was very surprised you would choose to focus on that instead of our topic.
 
By your pressing the WORK of BELIEF instead of BAPTISM as being the 
WORK accompanying faith - I had no other choice but agree that THAT ONE 
inner work is indeed required for salvation. 

Remember, I am opposing your own position (SPECIFICALLY in regard to the 
outer WORK of Baptism) with what I believe to be the correct Biblical position – 
not simply a poor alternative of your own making. So I ask that my own position 
be evaluated on what I say it is - not on what you hope I will say it is. 
 
So far I have stated the following:

1. Lost humanity is shown in scripture to be incapable of "good works". Good 
fruit (obedience) ONLY comes from a Good Tree (Matt 7 points this out and can 
be quoted again if the content is needed again).

This first most basic point is devastating to the notion (speculation) that lost 
humanity is not internally transformed by the New Birth UNTIL the work of 
Baptism is done. It has been made both in the rebuttals and my first affirmative. 

Of the texts presented in support of this - Voyd responded to only ONE - 1Cor 2. 
Hardly a compelling treatment of the texts - but at least something. 

Voyd
after some posturing to the "sinner man" versus the "saved man." The "natural 
man" of this chapter is the "Uninspired man" and the "Spiritual man" is the 
"Inspired man" .

Here is 1 Cor 2:12 -- 

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from 
God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

IF the ONLY ones given anything by God are Prophets and if the ONLY ones 
that can KNOW anything about those things given by God - are prophets - then 
the rest of US - are sunk. INSTEAD it appears that the US - we see in 1Cor 2 are 
the SAINTS - the CHURCH.

Voyd
Hear Paul say, 
"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all 
things, yea, the deep things of God."(1Cor. 2: 7-10) The "Us" in this chapter are 
the inspired Apostles, and the "natural man" is the inspired man, and Paul said, 
"we (the Apostles" have the mind of Christ."

Bob
Paul did not say "We - the Apostles - have the mind of Christ". Rather he leaves it 
open to ALL the saints. NOT restricting anything to JUST the Apostles. Certainly 
Apostles are INCLUDED - but Voyd is simply in error in thinking that the 
SAINTS are EXCLUDED as the context clearly shows - 

1Cor 2:13 
which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those 
taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are 
foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually 
appraised.

Here we see that EVEN UNDERSTANDING is ABSENT from the lost unsaved. 
Voyd would have it that UNDERSTANDING is ABSENT from the Saved people 
of God in order to avoid the devastating implication of this text on his idea that 
LOST humanity must drum up their own faith and belief and spiritual 
discernment.

As Paul confirms in this SAME chapter - the THINGS that God has given are for 
those who "LOVE HIM" (vs 9) to understand. And it is generally accepted that 
the SAINTS love God.
 
While I commend Voyd's use of Vs 9 in admitting that the OT is being quoted in 
NT as God's infallible word in vs 9 of 1Cor 2, it is important that "THOSE WHO 
LOVE HIM" is being setup as the 'WE" who have the MIND of CHRIST and 
who are recipients of God's spiritual Word. Paul appeals to that OT Word in 
Isaiah authoritatively as "IT IS WRITTEN" (1Cor 2:9).

I 1Cor 2 Paul contrasts wicked humanity arrayed against God and even crucifying 
Christ (vs 8) with those Godly saints in Ephesis who are people of faith 
understanding and mature wisdom (vs 5-6). Those of faith, understanding and 
wisdom ARE NOT identified as

Vs 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they 
are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are 
spiritually appraised. 
 
And of course - Voyd's response does not begin deal with Eph 2 and Romans 8 
quoted in my first affirmative AND also in my rebuttals - texts showing VERY 
CLEARLY that this is the condition of the lost.

2. As already stated in my affirmation - God overcomes this state of lost humanity 
by "drawing all men unto him". - John 12:32 (Can be quoted again if needed).

This is devastating to Voyd's side trip claiming that the fundamental Gospel 
principle of point 1 above is somehow Calvinist. Calvinists do NOT accept the 
drawing of ALL MEN unto God by the power of Christ. They choose rather to 
"redefine all men" into "ALL of an arbitrarily selected FEW". I am happy to share 
the results of my years participating on the Calvinist vs Arminian debate forums if 
that is of interest at some point. 

3. God's supernatural drawing of depraved lost humanity allows only one WORK 
- the INTERNAL act of CHOOSING to believe in Christ - the WORK of 
BELIEVING that Voyd already admitted to - as mentioned by Christ in John 
6:29"This is the work of God that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." 

This itself destroys Voyd's own argument that SINCE (in his view) some 
work/obedience MUST be included we can not conclude that salvation has 
occurred until some act of Obedience is combined with faith. BY ADMITTING 
that BELIEF itself is a WORK of faith (by admitting to the truth of John 6:29) 
Voyd has eviscerated his own argument for delaying salvation until the public act 
of Baptism. 

4. God's changing transforming, reconciling work mentioned in 2Cor 5 (and noted 
in the previous affirmative) takes place at the  moment of belief - so that we CAN 
then follow in GOOD works of OBEDIENCE. The TREE is supernaturally re-
created GOOD and GOOD fruit is now possible.
 
This to is devastating to Voyd's argument that the BAD TREE must first produce 
GOOD FRUIT (baptism) to become a GOOD tree. 

These were the simple straightforward points of my first affirmative - easy to 
follow and in the case of my own affirmative - RICH in supporting quotes from 
God's Word. 

Voyd indicated that this direct, simple, straightforward Bible based model is 
confusing for a few people. I am sorry for that, but since it is the most compelling 
and informative model in a debate - I will continue.

These are the assumptions I began with 

1. Scriptures (the 66) -the Bible - does not contradict itself. We must take all the 
information on a given doctrine to get the most accurate view.

2. There is only ONE Gospel - only ONE way of Salvation. It predicts a change 
that is from the INSIDE out - not the outside in. 

3. Water baptism (by immersion) is a public ceremony declaring the choice of the 
disciple - declaring that they have already chosen Christ and also choose to follow 
Christ obediently in all things. (As Christ said - If you LOVE Me - KEEP My 
Commandments). 
 
4. The Believing penitent is SAVED upon believing and NOT deferred until a 
later public ceremony of Baptism.
 
New Points in this 2nd affirmative. 
 
1. There is only ONE Gospel(applicable both post cross and pre- cross). That 
ONE Gospel (Gal 1:6) shows us salvation BEFORE Baptism in BOTH post cross 
and pre-cross cases.

Baptism was introduced pre-cross and practiced by both Jews, John's disciples 
and Christ's disciples. We have no record that Christ's disciples were baptized 
AGAIN after the cross - so the pre-cross baptism will have to do in their case 
SHOWING that Baptism PRIOR to the cross was just a legitimate as it is today. 
Even though a few NT Christians baptized by John were re-baptized by Paul to 
receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
 
2. Case studies. 

Scripture provides numerous examples of the transformation from lost to saved 
"in fellowship" with God - occurring BEFORE Baptism. Since there is only ONE 
Gospel (Gal 1:6) there is in fact only ONE way of salvation and it obviously 
declares that salvation exists EVEN prior to Baptism.

A. The thief on the cross is a good example of one who simply believes and 
ASKS to be with Christ - PRESTO under the ONE Gospel - that was sufficient! 

B. In the case of Acts 10 we find that AFTER preaching the "words of life" but 
BEFORE baptism - the house of Cornelius is in "fellowship" with God to the 
point of being filled with the Spirit. 

(As already noted in Rebuttal 03). Those watching the detail will recall.. 
Acts 10:34-43 Peter's sermon in which we find the Gospel - 10:44-46 the 
unbaptized gentiles are filled with the Spirit of Christ the Holy Spirit - 10:47-48 
AND THEN - Baptized 

C. Acts 16:30-31 is another case of the saving moment placed under a 
microscope. The jailer asks "WHAT must I DO to BE saved" vs 30. The answer 
is direct "BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus and you will be SAVED".  Although 
obedience would follow the transaction of BELIEVING and being SAVED 
(obedience like Baptism, fruits of the Spirit developed in the life, and even 
celebrating the Lord's Table) - YET the MOMENT of SALVATION is dependant 
ONLY on Believing. Which as Voyd admits - IS the WORK that GOD would 
have us do in response to His Gospel invitation. 
 
2. Both of the above examples show fellowship restored with God BEFORE 
Baptism. Devastating to Voyd's position as they cover both pre-cross and post-
cross cases, they zero on in on the very MOMENT of salvation - as case examples 
AND they are done CLEARLY at a time when Baptism was known and practiced. 
Other texts provide the principle behind these case studies. 

Romans 10 confirms the Gospels work behind those events - the Gospel allows 
for salvation AT Belief.

Rom 10:9 
BELIEVE in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be SAVED; 
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the 
mouth he confesses, resulting in SALVATION.

As Voyd states in his first rebuttal - his entire argument hinges on 

Voyd
SALVATION is IN CHRIST and that THE ONLY WAY to get into Christ is to 
be baptized INTO him.

Bob
These texts compellingly refute Voyd's assumption that SALVATION can only 
be obtained by BAPTISM since there is NO OTHER WAY to enter into a saving 
relationship with Christ and thus to be IN Christ (or have Christ - IN YOU (Col 
1:27). Rather than dealing with these case studies showing fellowship with Christ 
APART from Baptism, Voyd continues his insistence that we WON't find 
SALVATION APART from Baptism happening FIRST.

God consistently declares the Gospel principle that SALVATION is obtained 
APART from external WORKS of man. SALVATION which VOYD maintains 
CAN NOT occur BEFORE Baptism since our ONLY ACCESS to Christ IS 
Baptism (in Voyd's view).

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and 
opens the door, I will come INTO HIM and will dine with him, and he with Me. 

Eph 2 CONTINUES the point that we are saved apart from external works (like 
Baptism). Eph 2 SHOWS the proper relationship of WORKS to ANYTHING that 
might prevent our acceptance of salvation or be needed for that transformation 
from lost to saved. 

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He 
loved us, 
5 even when we were DEAD in our transgressions, made us alive together with 
Christ ( by grace you have been SAVED), 
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in 
Christ Jesus, 
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in 
kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 
8 For by grace you have been SAVED through faith; and that NOT of yourselves, 
it is the gift of God; 
9 NOT as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

God consistently presents the choice as that of RECEIVING Christ - simply doing 
the WORK of BELIEVING as 

John 1:11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not RECEIVE 
Him. 12 But as many as RECEIVED Him, to them He gave the right to become 
children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 

John 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 
16 "That whosoever BELIEVES in him SHOULD NOT perish but HAVE 
everlasting life"

Even Voyd's supposition that something magical about the ritual of water Baptism 
causes the transaction whereby we are Baptized INTO Christ - is totally denied by 
Peter - as Peter points out that NOTHING in the ACTUAL ritual ITSELF is 
causing a spiritual change - but rather it is the "APPEAL to God" made by the 
soul of the new disciple that causes the change - that SAVES.

3. Having SEEN clearly that NOTHING but RECEIVING Christ stands between 
the sinner and salvation, we observe that according to scripture - once that person 
CHOOSES to ACCEPT - they are SAVED (The Gospel result) and this Gospel 
result includes the Gospel change in the INNER man - allowing for GOOD fruit 
to begin. 

2Cor 5 :17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things 
passed away; behold, new things have come. 
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through 
Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting 
their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of 
reconciliation. 
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an 
appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might 
become the righteousness of God in Him. 

Taking an even BROADER VIEW - God also shows that obedience is the fruit of 
the changed life ALL through life - ENDURING until the end. For those whose 
life is rich in endurance - walking in the obedience of faith will be saved. 

Belief in Christ - IF genuine - will result in instant transformation (New Birth)(the 
good tree) which in turn results in GOOD FRUITS of obedience - throughout the 
entire life (not just the one act of Baptism). So the argument is NOT AGAINST 
obedience (as if we needed to oppose the truth of obedience to establish the truth 
of righteousness by faith). The argument is that the OUTWARD works RESULT 
from the INWARD RELEASE - FREEDOM -TRANSFORMATION.  The good 
tree produces good fruit.

Thanks to Voyd for that entertaining response to my first Affirmative. I would 
remind Voyd that as interesting as posturing is - it is not a compelling form of 
debate if the content of the issue is of any serious concern. 

My affirmative is that lost humanity is saved at the moment of belief. Belief itself 
is the result of God moving upon depraved lost humanity - and the lost sinner 
choosing to yield to that "wind" of the Holy Spirit 'drawing ALL MEN unto 
Christ'.

I have further endorsed Voyd's OWN QUOTE of John 6 stating that the inner 
WORK of man is in BELIEVING. That WORK is the only WORK that is united 
to FAITH at the moment of the new birth - salvation, acceptance with God

Voyd observes that he is confused at this point because he supposes that God does 
NOT draw ALL MEN unto Christ and thus that God could be "Responsible" for 
sin.

Voyd
and if God forgets or fails to send the Spirit the sinner cannot be "born again" and 
will therefore be forever lost 
 
 Bob
Voyd's pretended confusion is based on speculation that God might fail. Flimsy 
grounds for an argument.

Voyd
The mere act of accepting Christ is ITSELF obedience-faith completed. But he is 
contending that the sinner cannot even hear and believe until God sends the Holy 
Spirit into his heart. He keeps quoting John 6: 29-"This is the work of God, that 
ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

saying the only work the sinner has to perform is believe in Christ, but he says the 
sinner cannot believe in Christ until and unless God sends him the Holy Spirit to 
enable him to believe. This makes God responsible for every lost soul. Just take a 
look at the tangled mess Bob has made:

1. The sinner is saved the moment he believes. 
2. He cannot be saved without belief in Christ. 
3. He cannot believe until God sends him the Spirit. 
4. If God does not send the Spirit he is forever lost. 
5. God and God alone is responsible for his lost condition! 
This is the mess he is in...

Bob
The only MESS above - is the mess that Voyd provides in speculating 4 and 5 
above - that possibly God fails or forgets - that God does NOT send his Holy 
Spirit EVEN though God says that He DOES "draw ALL MEN" unto Himself.

Since I am not a Calvinist - I do not subscribe to the doctrine of irresistible Grace 
forcing us to accept Christ. Rather that God supernatural DRAWS ALL MEN 
unto Himself and thus PROVIDES (supernaturally) CHOICE to all men EVEN 
though they are too lost and depraved to be ABLE to make such a righteous 
choice APART from such grace. The playing field is then somewhat leveled by 
providing that supernatural DRAWING as God states.

Hopefully this side trail of Voyd's regarding God's possible failure - will not 
misdirect the dialogue further. My position seems clear enough. Man is depraved, 
lost and unable to even UNDERSTAND God's spiritual truths (as scripture has 
shown in 1Cor 2, Eph 2, and Romans 8). God overcomes this by drawing ALL 
men unto Himself and giving us the CHOICE of BELIEF. WHEN BELIEF is 
exercised - we are SAVED as Romans 10:9 states.

Bob
"There is not one place anywhere in the Bible where anyone was ever said to be 
saved or justified by his faith until that faith acted in obedience to God."

Voyd<> 

Since my statement is that NO text can be found - I of course will not be finding 
that "NO TEXT".

ON the other hand I HAVE provided a number of texts SHOWING that AT the 
time of BELIEF - the lost is SAVED.
 
Rom 10:9 
BELIEVE in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be SAVED; 
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the 
mouth he confesses, resulting in SALVATION.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and 
opens the door, I will come INTO HIM and will dine with him, and he with Me. 

Eph 2 CONTINUES the point that we are saved apart from external works (like 
Baptism). Eph 2 SHOWS the proper relationship of WORKS to ANYTHING that 
might prevent our acceptance of salvation or be needed for that transformation 
from lost to saved. 
 
Eph 2:4 in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the 
surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 

8 For by grace you have been SAVED through faith; and that NOT of yourselves, 
it is the gift of God; 
9 NOT as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 

God consistently presents the choice as that of RECEIVING Christ - simply doing 
the WORK of BELIEVING as 

John 1:11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not RECEIVE 
Him. 12 But as many as RECEIVED Him, to them He gave the right to become 
children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 
 
John 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 
16 "That whosoever BELIEVES in him SHOULD NOT perish but HAVE 
everlasting life"
 
Voyd
When Jesus commanded the Apostles to go into all the world and preach the 
gospel He said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" 
(Mark 16:16) No statement could possibly be plainer. Belief + Baptism = Salvation.

Bob
From this we would expect NO SALVATION until Baptism (and have a huge 
problem with all the Bible examples we have provided showing that this is NOT 
true) - as Voyd admits.
 
Voyd
Belief minus Baptism is DEAD

Bob
By ignoring the texts and examples provided - Voyd hopes that simply repeating 
his own assertion will cause it to be true. Doesn't work.

Using such a wooden structure we would conclude from Mark 13:13 "He who 
ENDURES until the END will be SAVED" ENDURE UNTIL THE END = 
SAVED. 

From these we would expect NO salvation until DEATH. 

Voyd has ignored that fact repeatedly. 

But fortunately we have the simple rule of Romans 10:9 John 3:15-16 etc.

John 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 
16 "That whosoever BELIEVES in him SHOULD NOT perish but HAVE 
everlasting life"

BELIEF = SAVED. (Rom 10:9, John 3:15-16) 

IN THAT context ALL the above SAVED texts are true - arguing from what the 
DO say - INSTEAD of arguing out of the void of what they do NOT say.

IF at BELIEF you are SAVED - Then 
1. Belief 
2. Belief + Baptism 
3. Belief + Baptism + Endure to the END 

ARE ALL TRUE. BUT if you argue anyone of these from the void of what it 
does not say - the whole thing blows up in your face. If you choose 3 then 1 and 2 
are lies. If you pick 2 then 3 is true but 1 is still a lie. IF you pick the FIRST one 
as TRUE then ALL THREE remain true for what they DO way - but arguing from 
their VOID would not work. 

I have affirmed that God states clearly in Matt 28 AND in Matt 7 that it is FIRST 
the one who is taught and made a disciple - TRANSFORMED into the GOOD 
TREE - that is THEN found to have external GOOD FRUIT (obedience) – 
Baptism.

Matt 28:18 
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to 
Me in heaven and on earth. 
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name 
of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you 
always, even to the end of the age. 

1. Go 
2. then MAKE disciples 
3. then Baptize them 
4. then teach them ALL THINGS I have taught you. 

Both understanding AND good fruit - are RESULTS of the INTERNAL changed 
life. 
 
Voyd
Matt.28:18-20 is a parallel passage to Mark 16:16. I pointed out in my last 
affirmative that no one can be saved until and unless he comes INTO relationship 
with God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. Bob says, "Ooops! Mistake again. Matt.28 
tells us to MAKE disciples Then to Baptize." Now Bob answer a simple question: 
Can anyone be saved WITHOUT being in a relationship with God, Christ, and the 
Holy Spirit? You can answer that question with a "Yes" or "No" Will you do it? 

Bob
The answer is no - one must be in relationship with Christ to be saved and one is 
NOT lost while IN relationship with Christ because to BELIEVE in Christ IS to 
be saved (Rom 10:9, John 3:15-16) 

And we are IN a relationship when a DISCIPLE - done BEFORE Baptism 
according to Matt 28. WE CAN NOT be even a DISCIPLE (according to 1Cor 2, 
Rom 8, Eph 2) WITHOUT being saved - so we ACCEPT Christ - by believing in 
Him - then we are saved - then we study further as his disciple - THEN we are 
baptized.

Easy, simple, obvious. 

I affirmed the order of BELIEF - RECEPTION of the Spirit of Christ THEN 
baptism as we see it explicitly stated in Acts 10.

Voyd
What did Bob do with my argument on Acts 2;38? ... 
"Turning to the 2nd. chapter of Acts we find .... He said, "Repent, and be baptized 
everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall 
receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)  .... 
So REPENTANCE and BAPTISM are FOR the remission of sins, and my 
proposition is proven

Bob
I agree that this is your strongest case. Unfortunately it is flawed as well. It shows 
that the preparation needed for the Holy Spirit is that forgiveness that has come 
BEFORE it.

Acts 10 CONFIRMS that the forgiveness is REAL - BEFORE baptism as the 
Holy Spirit is poured out BEFORE Baptism on these believers. You simply 
ignore the obvious test case as it refutes the wooden structure you would attempt 
to insert based on the wording of Acts 2:38. 

I have already pointed this out - but you have ignored this critical test case 
provided in Acts 10 - as it totally unravels the point you are trying to build upon 
Acts 2. IT USES the information in Acts 2:38 to SHOW that FORGIVENESS has 
to be REAL - and PRE-Baptism for the events of Acts 10 to take place as 
recorded.

I also provided the case of the thief on the cross and of the formula found in Acts 
16 

The jailer asks "WHAT must I DO to BE saved" vs 30. The answer is direct 
"BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus and you will be SAVED". Although obedience 
would follow the transaction of BELIEVING and being SAVED (obedience like 
Baptism, fruits of the Spirit developed in the life, and even celebrating the Lord's 
Table) - YET the MOMENT of SALVATION is dependant ONLY on Believing. 
Which as Voyd admits - IS the WORK that GOD would have us do in response to 
His Gospel invitation. 
 
I have affirmed that in these discussions - the 66 books of scripture are the text 
(the authoritative source) am using. I have quoted nothing but that source.
 
Voyd on the other hand has wandered far afield in trying to manufacture supposed 
sources that might be used by me.

Voyd 
already told us that the "natural man" of 1Cor.2 is the "alien sinner" and that he 
cannot even understand the Word of God until God sends him the Spirit to, as 
Ellen G. White states it in her writings, "illuminates" the Word, and Bob believes 
that Ellen was inspired.

Bob
In my opinion it is better to actually quote the one you are debating IF the intent is 
to refute the positions held by the opposing side. Making stuff up is not 
compelling.
 
I have affirmed Christ's words in John 12 - " I WILL DRAW ALL MEN unto 
Me".
 
Voyd constantly speculates that Christ might not come through there.

 Voyd
..the sinner cannot "Confess his sins, "Accept Christ" or "Believe in Him" until 
God sends him the Spirit, and if God forgets or fails to send the Spirit the sinner 
cannot be "born again" and will therefore be forever lost 
 
Bob
Since Voyd is just making up the idea that God might not do as He said, there is 
nothing to reply to here. 

I have affirmed that the New Birth - takes place AT BELIEF when Romans tells 
us that we are 'saved' Rom 10:9. Christ stands at the door and knocks - when we 
HEAR and CHOOSE to open the door- the deal is done. Baptism may follow – 
but we are already born again - saved.

Voyd
Again - making things up about God NOT following through. for the Lord said, 
"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (Jno.3:3)

Bob
1. We observe Christ states this a fact of salvation a fact of the Gospel a FACT - 
3.5 years BEFORE the death of Christ. A FACT that all Bible teachers in Israel 
should ALREADY know - according to Christ in John 3. It is a FACT of the ONE 
Gospel of Gal 1:6 - a FACT for all time.

2. We must be born again - no matter where we live - this side of the cross OR the 
other side of the cross. UNLESS we are born again there is NO fellowship.

John 3:3 
Jesus answered and said to him, ""Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born 
again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'' 

Paul points out that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself - but the 
NEW creation is formed when we accept Christ and are saved (Rom 10:9).

2Cor 5 :17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a NEW CREATURE; the old 
things passed away; behold, new things have come. 
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through 
Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting 
their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of 
reconciliation. 
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an 
appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might 
become the righteousness of God in Him. 

Being SAVED - being BORN AGAIN - merely requires that we be IN CHRIST. 
And once we are SAVED Rom 10:9, John 3:15-16 - the deal is done.

Voyd
Now, Jesus made it very plain as to what the New Birth is, and it is NOT "wait for 
the Spirit", "Confess sins" nor "Just accept Christ." Jesus said, "Except a man be 
born water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Jno.3:5) 
Quite a difference between what the Lord said and what Bob says, and let us hope 
Bob will not make the same mistake Nicodemus made and say the water in this 
passage refers to the physical birth; that would make the sinner half born 
spiritually and he would remain in that half born condition until he reached the 
age of accountability

Bob
No such "half born" language can be found in the entire chapter - NOR is it a 
question of "half spiritual birth at physical birth and half spiritual birth at 
SPIRITUAL birth". Voyd can't be serious about such terminology. EVEN 
Nicodemus does not use it (as confused as Nicodemus is about the SECOND 
BIRTH).

Christ gives 3 parallel phrases - EACH of them showing TWO Births.

John 3:3Jesus answered and said to him, ""Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is 
born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'

In Christ's first phrase we see two births in the term "Born AGAIN". Clearly the 
second one is the new birth - but the term BORN AGAIN - implies that we 
already know about the first one - our physical birth.
 
Nicodemus understands the first birth but remains confused about  the second – 
the NEW Birth.

John 3 
5 Jesus answered, ""Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the 
Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

In this second phrase - again - two births - one of water (our fleshly physical 
birth) and one of Spirit (our spiritual birth - the New Birth)

Then the THIRD

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is 
spirit.

AGAIN Christ clearly identifies BOTH births. The one of the FLESH and the 
ONE of the SPIRIT. The WATER is associated with the FLESH and the SPIRIT 
associated with the SPIRIT. Hard to miss. The obvious reason for the first is that 
you don't EXIST until you are formed as a human. Clearly that has to be done no 
matter what view you take. Might as well accept it. Speculation that we have a 
half-spiritual person is arguing from the void of what the text does NOT say. 
Christ said you obviously have to be BORN physically - the FIRST birth (not a 
HALF spiritual birth) AND THEN you have to be RECREATED born-again 
spiritually Another COMPLETE birth only this time it is SPIRITUAL.
 
Voyd goes on to explicitly refute the text of John 3.
 
Voyd 
God did not send him the Spirit to enable him to "accept Christ."

Bob
John 3 makes no such statement. RATHER it states that the sending of the Holy 
Spirit IS NOT a moment we can precisely identify - but he is always there unseen, 
often unknown and working like the wind.

John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not 
know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of 
the Spirit.'' 9 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?''

Voyd's affirmation that NO Holy Spirit is there DRAWING Nicodemus to Christ 
(As we SEE Nicodemus DRAWN to Christ IN the chapter - vs 1-2) is totally 
superfluous. He makes it up.

Voyd
Never mind that the Lord said, "And they shall be all taught of God. Every man 
therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." 
(Jno.6:45) Bob says he can't be taught, hear or learn how to come to Christ until 
and unless God sends him the Spirit.

Bob
Bob accepts that the Holy Spirit is God the Holy Spirit - being taught of God BY 
the Holy Spirit then is not a contradiction in Bob's argument. I had assumed we 
were on common ground there. But in the text of John 6 Christ mentioned those 
who CHOSE to RECEIVE Christ and come to God. The first work is to 
RECEIVE Christ (as Voyd points out in previous posts).

Voyd
And BTW Bob's contention that the "natural man" of 1Cor.2 is the sinner man he 
is forever lost because Bob says he cannot even believe in Christ until he receives 
the Spirit, but Paul said, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit 
of God:" (1Cor. 2:14) Bob's Bible (NASB) renders the verse, "But a natural man 
does not accept the things of the Spirit of God" Bob says the "natural man" of this 
verse is the "sinner man" and that this "sinner man" cannot even believe until and 
unless he receives the Spirit, and Paul says this man will not even "accept the 
things of the Spirit" therefore the sinner is so hopeless that even "faith alone" 
cannot save him!!

Bob
A contrived contradiction easily addressed. Paul contrasts the saved with the lost 
in 1Cor 2 (as already proven) in the text of 1Cor 2. By definition the lost do NOT 
dive in to the depths of God's Word - because God's Word is "spiritual" and 
"spiritually discerned". 

The ONLY thing available to the LOST is the DRAWING by God of ALL MEN 
unto Himself (admittedly - Through the Holy Spirit that works on the heart as the 
wind).

Sound "understanding" of spiritual truths is NOT a part of that LOST state.  
ONLY the CHOICE to either SUBMIT or REJECT the drawing of the Holy Spirit 
is there.

Once the sinner ACCEPTS - YIELDS - then spiritual understanding of those 
mysteries mentioned in 1Cor 2 can BEGIN. 

I have affirmed most specifically that Water baptism (by immersion) is a public 
ceremony declaring the choice of the disciple - declaring that they have already 
chosen Christ and also choose to follow Christ obediently in ALL things.

Public - in that you can not baptize YOURSELF. I hope that even Voyd will 
admit to that fact. Ceremony in that it is INDEED merely ceremonial - as there is 
nothing magic about the water. As Peter states clearly "IT IS NOT merely the 
WATER CLEANSING the flesh". SHOWING a CLEAR DECISION on the part 
of the one being baptized - for Christ "an APPEAL to God for a clean 
conscience". The one baptized - has yielded to the Spirit's drawing, has 
LEARNED and accepted the spiritual truth of Christ's substitutionary death 
(something that is foolishness to the lost depraved mind) - has BELIEVED (and 
so is already saved according to Roman 10:9) - and is now participating in a 
public ritual.
 
Voyd 
definition in the Bible if your life depended on it.

Bob
The point of my statement above is clear and obvious in the texts provided.

Enjoy!

Voyd
New Testament baptism is no such thing, and you could not read such a I 
emphatically deny that Ephesians 2 teaches "total depravity." Paul describes the 
lost (not helpless) state of these Gentiles before they were reconciled unto God in 
one body by Christ.
 
Bob
Too bad you did not quote the text that so utterly refutes that assertion.

Eph 2:1 
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according 
to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons 
of disobedience. 
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the 
desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as 
the rest.
 
The DEAD had no real power to RESIST the "prince of the power of the air".  
RATHER they were enslaved - and forced to do his will. Paul makes the point 
also in Romans 6 "you are SLAVES of the one you obey"

To claim that these slaves - DEAD spiritually - are not helpless is to inject a great 
deal of imagination into your argument.

The ONLY remedy for this lost helpless state is for God to ACT first.

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He 
loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together 
with Christ ( by grace you have been saved),

Voyd
He says, "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh 
by the blood of Christ." (Verse 13) Saved by the blood of Christ? Yes. Where? In 
Christ. How do we get into Christ? We are baptized INTO Him. This is the one 
baptism Paul preached to them.(Ephesians 4: 5) Don't forget we are baptized 
INTO Christ. Rom. 6:3-4 - Gal.3: 26-29

Bob
I can only assume you do not read your own text. The DEAD - the LOST the 
ENSLAVED do NOT suddenly "wake up" finding that they have just been 
"baptized" and are now free to choose Christ, understand the things of God and 
agree with the spiritual truths of God's Word. RATHER they are DRAWN by the 
Spirit of Christ, they CHOOSE to BELIEVE and are then SAVED (Rom 10:9), 
they are THEN enabled to STUDY further spiritual TRUTHS (1Cor 2:13-14) and 
empowered to ACT (Eph 2:4-10 Romans 8:3-6) walking in the Spirit we choose 
the things of the Spirit including the obedience of Baptism. 

Voyd
Bob Says "Since we are totally incapable of inner change or even outward 
obedience God must act." The above statement makes God responsible for every 
lost soul, 

Bob
Responsible for fulfilling his OWN promise to the lost "I will DRAW ALL men 
unto Me" John 12:32. In all your objecting to this quote of scripture you yourself 
never quote it or address it. You pretend that I authored it and try to refute it. A 
poor debate strategy.

Voyd
and is a flat contradiction of Heb.5:8-9 as well as the many other scriptures which 
teach man must obey God in order to be saved. 

Bob
Hebrews appears to be your favorite book to give a text reference and then quote 
yourself. Heb 5:8-9 makes no such statement as you make above.

IT rather refers to Christ (who was NEVER LOST) and mentions HIS obedience. 
Try again.

Voyd
Bob says, "John 6:29"This is the work of God that ye believe on him whom he 
hath sent" And thus there IS the only "WORK" of God that is available to the lost 
- that of believing." But you say he cannot even believe unless God sends the 
Spirit to him.

Bob
Which God does send the Holy Spirit (of TRUTH) "To CONVICT THE WORLD 
of sin and righteousness and judgement" John 16:8-14. Hopefully you will accept 
one of these texts from John about the Holy Spirit and God really drawing all men 
- then our differences will vanish.
 
I have carefully (as in all my posts) gone through each point of Voyd's and shown 
it's error. This results in a compelling argument that deals with all exceptions 
(contrived and otherwise). I invite Voyd to start doing the same.