BALLARD/STROM DEBATE ON BAPTISM

 
 
The Scriptures teaches that obedience is from the inside out. We are first changed 
in the inner man via the new birth and then the outward "good fruit" of obedience 
including Baptism results.
 
Thus we are born-again/saved/forgiven at the moment we confess our sins and 
accept Christ as our savior - believing in Him as our Savior is the moment of 
salvation" 

Affirm: Bob Strom 
Deny: Voyd N. Ballard 

All Scripture from KJV unless otherwise specified.

I have been debating for more than 50 years, during which time I have met too 
many sectarian preachers to remember, but I have never seen a more rambling, 
senseless, conglomerated mess than Bob’s first affirmative. He agreed to affirm 
that "The Scriptures teach that the sinner is saved by faith alone, before and 
without baptism."

But just take a good look at the jumbled mess he now says he is affirming. 
Evidently, I convinced him in my first three posts that he could not sustain the 
proposition, so he has changed it, and by so doing has gotten himself in a worse 
mess than before, if that be possible. Someone on the List wrote me saying, "You 
have Strom wiggling."  

Yes, he is "wiggling" He is trying to "wiggle" out of the plain teaching that 
Salvation is IN CHRIST and that the only way to get into Christ is to be baptized 
INTO him. I have pressed him to produce just ONE passage that says we believe 
INTO Christ, but he cannot do it. Better men than Bob have tried to find such a 
passage and have failed.

Bob’s constant assertions that the sinner is saved the moment he believes will not 
cut it. Fact of the matter is Bob has embraced the Calvinist position that the sinner 
is so dead in sin that he cannot even believe until and unless God sends the Holy 
Spirit to him in order that he may receive the word. This is the foolish position 
Bob has taken on 1Corinthians chapter 2. So far I have let him go on the stupid 
statements he has made on this chapter, but now the time has come for me to 
"take the gloves off" and drive him from his Calvinistic position on this chapter, 
so here goes: 

Bob is trying to palm off the old Calvinistic doctrine that the "Natural" man of 
1Cor.2 is the spiritually "Dead sinner" and that the man who has "Received the 
Spirit of God" is one on whom the Holy Spirit has performed a special operation 
so as to enable this "Dead sinner" to believe in Christ. This false doctrine makes 
God responsible for every soul that will be eternally lost. Take a good look at it: 

1. The sinner is so dead he cannot even believe until and unless God sends the 
Holy Spirit to perform that special operation.
2, Suppose God fails to perform the operation. 
3. The sinner dies and goes to Hell. 
4. God is to blame. 

This is too plain for anyone to miss. Bob may be so steeped in this false doctrine 
that he will refuse to see it--But the readers will. But I will tell you one thing, 
whether he sees it or not, he will never be able to "wiggle" out of it even though 
he spends the rest of his time quoting Rom. 10: 10 from his Calvinistic Version 
and talking about the good tree bringing forth good fruit.

Now, 1Cor.2 has no reference to the “sinner man” versus the “saved man.” The 
“natural man” of this chapter is the “Uninspired man” and the “Spiritual man” is 
the “Inspired man”. Paul said, “but we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, 
even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:” 
He then quoted Isa. 64:4 saying, “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear 
heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath 
prepared for them that love him.” These were the things that God had prepared 
before the world, the hidden wisdom which was a mystery that the world could 
not know in past ages, but which were made known in the gospel age. Hear Paul 
say, “But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all 
things, yea, the deep things of God.” (1Cor. 2: 7-10) The “Us” in this chapter are 
the inspired Apostles, and the “natural man” is the inspired man, and Paul said, 
“we (the Apostles” have the mind of Christ.” Now, this is the truth of the matter, 
and any other interpretation placed on this chapter makes God responsible for 
ever lost soul in hell, John Calvin and Ellen G. White to the contrary, and Bob, 
you will never be able to “wiggle” yourself out from under this one, and if you are 
wise you will do with it just what you did with my argument on Acts 2:38 in my 
last Affirmative. We are not through with Acts 2:38 by a long shot. In fact I am 
willing to stake my entire proposition on Acts 2:38, but before I get to it again I 
want to emphasize once again that all Spiritual Blessings are: 

IN CHRIST THERE IS: 
NEW CREATURE: 2Cor. 5:17 
REDEMPTION Col. 1:12-14 
FORGIVENESS 

The only way a sinner can be saved is to get into Christ where these blessings are, 
and the Bible plainly says we are Baptized INTO Christ. Bob’s statement that I 
am basing my argument on what the Bible does not say makes no sense at all. 
Paul says “as many of us as were baptized INTO Christ were baptized into His 
death.” (Rom. 6:3-4) His blood was shed in His death, therefore we contact the 
shed blood when we get INTO His death, and the only way into His death is by 
baptism.

Bob is supposed to be affirming that the sinner is saved by faith only, but he sent 
in a long drawn statement that is not a distant cousin to a proposition. He claims 
to have had experience in written debating, but either he does not know how to 
word a proposition or else he does know what he believes about this subject. I 
suspect it is the latter, since he has taken several positions on when and what 
saves the sinner. One time he has him saved by "faith only" then he has him saved 
by "grace only" and in his last negative he said, "The mere act of accepting Christ 
is ITSELF obedience-faith completed". But he is contending that the sinner 
cannot even hear and believe until God sends the Holy Spirit into his heart. He 
keeps quoting John 6: 29-"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom 
he hath sent." saying the only work the sinner has to perform is believe in Christ, 
but he says the sinner cannot believe in Christ until and unless God sends him the 
Holy Spirit to enable him to believe. This makes God responsible for every lost 
soul. Just take a look at the tangled mess Bob has made:

1. The sinner is saved the moment he believes. 
2. He cannot be saved without belief in Christ. 
3. He cannot believe until God sends him the Spirit. 
4. If God does not send the Spirit he is forever lost. 
5. God and God alone is responsible for his lost condition! 

This is the mess he is in and he will never be able to "wiggle" himself out of it. I 
have emphasized in every post I have made on this proposition that I accept in 
advance every passage Bob may introduce that teaches salvation by faith, but I 
deny that there is even one passage that teaches "faith alone." I repeat what I have 
said in every post:

"There is not one place anywhere in the Bible where anyone was ever said to be 
saved or justified by his faith until that faith acted in obedience to God." 

I have called on Bob again and again to produce such a passage if there is one. He 
has not produced it, and he will not produce it because it is not in the Bible. He 
will continue to "wiggle" and twist and misapply Scripture as he has been doing, 
but he will NOT produce the passage. No man can produce that which does not 
exist. The more he "wiggles" and twists and turns, the more he will tangle 
himself. 

"What a tangled web these false teachers weave, when with their false doctrine 
they attempt to deceive."

What did Bob say about the following argument I made? Something about how he 
would not rush to be baptized in order to receive the Cadillac if General Motors 
added something else to their promise.

"When Jesus commanded the Apostles to go into all the world and preach the 
gospel He said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16) 
No statement could possibly be plainer. Belief + Baptism = Salvation. Belief 
minus Baptism is DEAD being alone (Jas.2)

If General Motors should announce that "He that believeth and is baptized shall 
receive a New Cadillac" there would be such a stampede to the creeks, rivers, and 
baptisteries as the world has never witnessed, and Bob Strom would lead that 
stampede, and right behind him would come every Sectarian Preacher in this land. 
Not a one of them would claim the Cadillac on his faith alone without baptism." 

Now, quit "wiggling" around about something being added to the promise. 
Nothing has been added. Here it is plain and simple, and the readers can see it, 
and you can too Bob: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." 
Faith + Baptism = Salvation from past sins.

He that believeth & is baptized shall receive a New Cadillac." 
Faith + Baptism = New Cadillac 
No honest person could possibly fail to see this. 

Matt.28:18-20 is a parallel passage to Mark 16:16. I pointed out in my last 
affirmative that no one can be saved until and unless he comes INTO relationship 
with God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. Bob says, "Ooops! Mistake again. Matt.28 
tells us to MAKE disciples Then to Baptize."

Now Bob answer a simple question: Can anyone be saved WITHOUT being in a 
relationship with God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit? You can answer that question 
with a "Yes" or "No" Will you do it? 

What did Bob do with my argument on Acts 2;38? 
He observed the passover on that one. He simply passed over it!! 
But that will not get the job done, so here it is again:

Turning to the 2nd. chapter of Acts we find the Apostles preaching the dead, 
buried, and resurrected Christ. When the people realized they were guilty of 
crucifying the Lord they cried out to Peter and the rest of the Apostles, "Men and 
brethren, what shall we do?" Then Peter said unto them, "Why, there is not a thing 
in this world you can do. just believe on the Lord and you will receive the 
remission of your sins." EH? Is that what Peter said? That is what Bob would 
have said had he been the preacher there; That however, is a far cry from what the 
inspired Peter told them. He said, "Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the 
name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the 
Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)

The English word "For" in Acts 2:38 is from the Greek word "Eis" and is found 
1447 times in the Greek New Testament. The word is never translated "because 
of" but in all 1447 times is translated "Unto", "In order to","toward" etc., and is so 
translated in Acts 2:38. 

Whatever repentance is "for" in this verse baptism is "for" in this verse. The word 
"and" (Repent AND be baptized) is what we call a "copulative conjunction".  A 
copulative conjunction joins (or couples) together words and phrases of equal 
rank and importance, so when Peter commanded them to "REPENT AND BE 
BAPTIZED, Baptism is just as important as repentance, and both are "for" "in 
order to" the remission of sins.. Eliminate baptism and see the command, "Repent 
everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins." What does 
"for" mean--does it mean "because of"? 

Repent because your sins have been forgiven, or repent in order to have them 
forgiven? Will Bob or any one else take the position that the sinner repents 
because his sins have been forgiven? Now put baptism back into the command, as 
the Bible has it--"Repent and be baptized everyone of you for the remission of 
your sins." Does baptism in the passage change the meaning of the word "for" in 
the sentence? Of course not! So REPENTANCE and BAPTISM are FOR the 
remission of sins, and my proposition is proven, and Bob and all the rest of the 
denominational preachers combined cannot disprove it, and they may as well try 
to turn the Rocky Mountains over with a broken cornstalk as to try it. 

Now we come to what Bob calls his First Affirmative proposition.

You will notice (as I have already pointed out) that he has changed the 
proposition altogether from the one he first agreed to affirm which is "The 
scriptures teach that the sinner is saved by faith alone before and without 
baptism." I cannot blame him too much for making the change since we all know 
he utterly failed to prove his "faith only" theory. However, the change he made is 
not for the better, but for the worse. Take a look at what he now says he is going 
to affirm: 

The Scriptures teaches that we obedience is from the inside out. We are first 
changed in the inner man via the new birth and then the outward "good fruit" of 
obedience including Baptism results. Thus we are born-again/saved/forgiven at 
the moment we confess our sins and accept Christ as our savior - believing in Him 
as our Savior is the moment of salvation" 
Affirm: Bob Strom 
Deny: Voyd N. Ballard
 
Here we have Bob's plan of salvation: 
Confess our sins 
Accept Christ as our savior 
Believing in Him 
And Bob tries to palm the above off as the "New Birth" and says the MOMENT 
the sinner does the above he is saved-born again. But Bob has already told us that 
the "natural man" of 1Cor.2 is the "alien sinner" and that he cannot even 
understand the Word of God until God sends him the Spirit to, as Ellen G. White 
states it in her writings, "illuminates" the Word, and Bob believes that Ellen was 
inspired. That being the case the sinner cannot "Confess his sins, "Accept Christ" 
or "Believe in Him" until God sends him the Spirit, and if God forgets or fails to 
send the Spirit the sinner cannot be "born again" and will therefore be forever lost 
for the Lord said, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of 
God." (Jno.3:3) 

What a tangled mess for a poor lost soul to be, and it is all God's fault. Believe 
it....who can? 

Now, Jesus made it very plain as to what the New Birth is, and it is NOT "wait for 
the Spirit", "Confess sins" nor "Just accept Christ." Jesus said, "Except a man be 
born water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Jno.3:5) 
Quite a difference between what the Lord said and what Bob says, and let us hope 
Bob will not make the same mistake Nicodemus made and say the water in this 
passage refers to the physical birth; that would make the sinner half born 
spiritually and he would remain in that half born condition until he reached the 
age of accountability, and could well remain in this half born condition in case 
God did not send him the Spirit to enable him to "accept Christ." Never mind that 
the Lord said, "And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath 
heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." (Jno.6:45) Bob says he 
can't be taught, hear or learn how to come to Christ until and unless God sends 
him the Spirit. And BTW Bob's contention that the "natural man" of 1Cor.2 is the 
sinner man he is forever lost because Bob says he cannot even believe in Christ 
until he receives the Spirit, but Paul said, "But the natural man receiveth not the 
things of the Spirit of God:" (1Cor. 2:14) 

Bob's Bible (NASB) renders the verse, "But a natural man does not accept the 
things of the Spirit of God" Bob says the "natural man" of this verse is the "sinner 
man" and that this "sinner man" cannot even believe until and unless he receives 
the Spirit, and Paul says this man will not even "accept the things of the Spirit" 
therefore the sinner is so hopeless that even "faith alone" cannot save him!! No 
wonder that Bob changed his proposition. He has now worked himself into a 
position that even a Solomon could not get him out of. Why don't you give up this 
false doctrine Bob, and just accept, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be 
saved"? Before we leave John 3:5 I remind you that the Scholarship of the world 
says the water in that passage is water baptism. 
 

Bob says," Water baptism (by immersion) is a public ceremony declaring the 
choice of the disciple - declaring that they have already chosen Christ and also 
choose to follow Christ obediently in all things." 

New Testament baptism is no such thing, and you could not read such a definition 
in the Bible if your life depended on it. (Your soul does) Baptism saves. Mk.16:16 
- 1Pet.3:21. Is FOR the remission of Sins. Acts 2:38- Puts one INTO Christ. Rom 
6:3-4 - Gal.3:26-29 

Bob continues to misapply 1Cor.2 in his vain attempt to sustain his "total 
depravity" doctrine. He says, 

"Scripture declares that the lost sinner does NOT accept the spiritual truths of God 
and indeed CAN NOT. 1Cor 2:14 Our total depravity as a lost person is such that 
God considers to be dead and helpless to do anything about it - as He states in the 
text below. Eph 2:1-4" 

"Since we are totally incapable of inner change or even outward obedience - God 
must act." 

The above statement makes God responsible for every lost soul, and is a flat 
contradiction of Heb.5:8-9 as well as the many other scriptures which teach man 
must obey God in order to be saved. 
Bob says
"John 6:29"This is the work of God that ye believe on him whom he hath And 
thus there IS the only "WORK" of God that is available to the lost - that of 
believing." 

But you say he cannot even believe unless God sends the Spirit to him.  You are 
not only going in circles, you are now meeting yourself coming back!

Bob Quotes 2Cor 5 :17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the 
old things passed away; behold, new things have come." 

Quite true, and we enter Christ by baptism. (Rom.6:3-4

Now Bob what you need to do is get down to business and answer these 
arguments, but I have no hope that you will do so, There are some things that 
cannot be done.
 
 Voyd1@j... 
 Voyd-THE OLD TIMER 
 9289 Skyway # 8 
 Paradise, CA 95969