BALLARD/STROM DEBATE ON BAPTISM

 
 
The Scriptures teach that water baptism to a believing penitent is for the remission 
of his sins.

Affirm: Voyd N. Ballard 
Deny: Bob Strom

Strom's denial to Ballard's Third AFFIRMATIVE ON BAPTISM 
All Scripture quotations from NASB unless otherwise specified. Capital letters for 
emphasis only. This response is a bit more direct than the last two, in hopes that it 
will stir even more enthusiasm for this debate/topic. However it is not meant to 
annoy or insult.
****************************************** 

First I would note that this debate has been thoroughly enjoyable - thanks to 
Ballard and the forum for providing the venue. The reply chain is long and so I 
have divided it into segments for easier reading. Enjoy! 

Voyd
Bob has seesawed back and forth on when the sinner is saved until it is impossible 
to determine what he really believes. 

Bob
The posts show that I have stated consistently and repeatedly that the sinner is 
saved the moment he accepts Christ. It is difficult to fathom how someone could 
call that "seesawing".

Voyd
But there is not one place anywhere in the Bible where anyone was ever said to be 
saved or justified by his faith until that faith acted in obedience to God. 

Bob
Simply repeating your assertion without dealing with the response that was given 
does nothing to promote your own position. There is no text dealing with faith 
just prior to action and denying salvation as Ballard seems to hope. RATHER 
there are texts that speak of faith (supposed faith) that REJECTs obedience (and 
so is not really faith at all) - and it all speaks of SALVATION APART from 
Works. (Helping us see that NO WORK, earns us salvation NOR is there any 
work - except the WORK of believing Christ that is NEEDED to enter into 
salvation). Once the BAD tree is changed to a GOOD one - many acts of 
obedience can be expected to follow. (As we saw in Matt 7). Every time you state 
that no text says man is justified by faith - I have pointed out that scripture clearly 
says "We maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the 
Law". This is NOT MERELY saying we are justified by faith - but is ALSO 
saying "APART from works of the law" meaning salvation is not held off waiting 
for us to get baptized. (in this case). When you try to juxtaposition faith against 
obedience - saying that you can not be saved until some act of obedience - you 
defeat your own argument for Baptismal regeneration - by admitting that the mere 
act of BELIEVING is in ITSELF - a work of OBEDIENCE. As you already 
pointed out -- 

Voyd
Faith in Christ is a work, "This is the work of God that ye believe on him whom 
he hath sent." (Jno. 6:29)

The above is simply saying that when God commands man must obey to be 
justified by God, and that justification has never come to any man until he did 
obey the command. 

Bob
While No such statement is found in scripture as we find Voyd making above – 
yet we could possibly construe it to be true by observing that BELIEVING on 
Christ IS WORK. With the result that Ballard's "Baptismal regeneration" 
argument based on some work being done (before faith is "good enough" for 
salvation) - suffers a fatal encounter with Ballard's own admission that BELIEF is 
ITSELF work. The "work" is then DONE at the moment a man BELIEVES. No 
need to remain UNSAVED - the faith and the work are BOTH fully present. (As 
already noted). 
========================================================== 

Voyd
When Jesus commanded the Apostles to go into all the world and preach the 
gospel He said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16) 
No statement could possibly be plainer. Belief + Baptism = Salvation.

Bob
Again - repeating your previous argument without dealing with the compelling 
response already given - does nothing to promote your argument. As already 
noted IF we were to use the wooden logic above consistently THEN we would be 
forced to also state you are not a born again, saved Christian - until you DIE. 
Mark 13:13 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who 
endures to the end, he will be saved." 
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved." 
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one 
who has endured to the end who will be saved." 
Clearly applying the wooden logic to these texts does not result in truth. Instead 
of dealing with this problem as it was pointed out in my first rebuttal - Voyd is 
ignoring it - I assume that is because it is devastating to the point he is making 
here and he is left with no other choice but to move to another point. 
======================================================= 
 
Voyd
Belief minus Baptism is DEAD being alone (Jas.2)  

Bob
Here is another favorite method - quoting yourself and then slapping a text at the 
end as IF we could ever find such wording in that text. James 2 (the entire 
chapter) makes no mention of baptism. AND as we have already agreed - the 
mere act of BELIEVING on Christ - (true belief) IS ITSELF - Work (according to 
Christ). 

Voyd
If General Motors should announce that "He that believeth and is baptized shall 
receive a New Cadillac" there would be such a stampede to the creeks, rivers, and 
baptisteries as the world has never witnessed, and Bob Strom would lead that 
stampede, and right behind him would come every Sectarian Preacher in this land. 
Not a one of them would claim the Cadillac on his faith alone without baptism. I 
said that to a Baptist preacher one time in an oral debate and that preacher spoke 
up from his seat and said, "I would be the first man into the water", and if Bob 
will be honest he will say the same. What say ye, Bob? 

Bob
If General motors fully qualified that by adding "by the way I really mean that the 
one that ENDURES until the END OF LIFE will get the car" we would all back-
off and review just how wooden our logic might be. Perhaps we have missed 
something.  THEN when we read the GM statement of Rom 10:9 If you 
CONFESS with your mouth and BELIEVE With your heart PRESTO we give 
you the car!! Well I am sure we wouldn't be waiting around - we would ask for it 
- immediately. 
Rom 10:9 > 
Now focus here - NOTHING about "UNTO righteousness" 
RATHER we have SAVED - (no "flavors" of saved - just SAVED). And further 
we have "SALVATION" no flavors of salvation - just salvation. So we need not 
be upset or sidetracked when we ALSO see righteousness RESULTING from all 
this SALVATION. Just as Matt 7 states that the works/fruits RESULT from the 
GOOD TREE that is ALREADY the GOOD TREE. 
======================================================== 

Voyd
Matt.28:18-20 is a parallel passage to Mark 16:16. I pointed out in my last 
affirmative that no one can be saved until and unless he comes INTO relationship 
with God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. Bob says, "Ooops! Mistake again. Matt.28 
tells us to MAKE disciples Then to Baptize." Quoting from the NASB. He 
ignores the argument completely that, according to Jesus in this passage, we are 
baptized INTO the name of God, Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Bob
Not exactly a quote of Matt 28 in this case it reads - "GO therefore and MAKE 
DISCIPLES of all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the 
Son, and of the Holy Spirit" Clearly people must learn of the Trinity and learn of 
their condition, ACCEPT that and even CHOOSE to be Disciples (learners) 
THEN and only THEN are they Baptized. ALREAY having been MADE 
DISCIPLES. 

Voyd
I think Bob wells knows that a disciple is a "learner" or "follower" so when the 
preaching of the gospel makes "learners" or "followers" of Christ they learn that 
the Lord requires baptism

Bob
Yes they learn of Baptism and a myriad other things. As Paul stated in Heb 5 – 
there are layers upon layers of learning that takes place - Baptism being one of 
those things included in the early layers. BUT meaningful ONLY because they 
have already chosen Christ, are ALREADY Christians, ARE ALREADY 
disciples, ARE NOT the carnal lost person who is not filled with the spirit. 
================================================== 

Voyd
if they are to "follow" Him INTO this Divine relationship. No mistake here, and I 
deny the allegation and charge the Alligator (Bob) to produce one passage of 
Scripture where any person ever believed INTO Christ. 

Bob
Let's read it again carefully ... 
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and BELIEVE in 
your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be SAVED; 
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the 
mouth he confesses, resulting in SALVATION.

Voyd
This passage (nor any other passage) proves salvation by FAITH ONLY.

Bob
It proves that Baptism IS NOT in the list as a barrier between the lost sinner and 
salvation RATHER - as we see clearly in the text - we believe and confess - and 
PRESTO! Saved. 

Voyd
Sure the passage teaches that we are saved by faith, but faith leads us UNTO (in 
the direction toward) salvation. 

Bob
Being saved by faith - is already SALVATION. Saved - is saved. There are not 
"flavors of Saved". Making things up like "yes by faith you are SAVED but also 
you are saved UNTO salvation" is pointless. Saved is saved - Let's stick with the 
text. 
========================================================= 

Voyd
I pointed out in my 2nd. Affirmative that: The Bible teaches that the sinner is 
"dead in trespasses and sin." (Eph.2:1) 
 
 Bob
Your problem is that you are not exploring that fact - of the PRE SAVED person. 
For it shows us that ALL further progress is IMPOSSIBLE. The ONLY thing that 
can happen to change this is belief and SALVATION the New Birth that causes 
OLD things to be passed away. ONLY IN the SPIRIT can SPIRITUAL things be 
discerned and agreed to. 1Cor 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things 
of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand 
them, because they are spiritually appraised. 
Romans 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is 
life and peace, 
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject 
itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 
======================================================= 

Voyd
In order to leave the kingdom of sin (darkness) he must: 
Hear the Gospel: Rom.10:17 - 1Cor.1:21 
Believe in Christ: Jno. 8-24 - Heb. 11:6 
Repent of sins: Acts 2:38 - Acts 17:30-31 
Confess Christ: Acts 8:37 - Rom. 10:9 
Be Baptized: Rom.6:3-4  - Gal. 3:26-29 
In faith and repentance he dies to the love and practice of sin and in baptism he 
dies to the guilt and state of sin.
 
Bob
As already noted in Romans8 and 1Cor2 dying to the practice and love of sin is 
not something a lost person is going to do. In fact - it is impossible. 

Voyd
The sinner believes UNTO-Repents UNTO-Confesses UNTO and is Baptized 
INTO Christ. 

Bob
Since no such text exists - I challenge Voyd to do better than simply quote 
yourself to make the point. By that - I simply mean that you have not proven 
anything by quoting yourself again. 

Voyd<> 

No need to - such artificial grammar is not present in scripture - nor is it needed 
since God's Word says that when we simply BELIEVE in HIM - "you will be 
saved".   "WHOSOEVER BELIEVES in him should NOT perish but shall have 
everlasting life" Bob said: "The mere act of accepting Christ is ITSELF obedience 
- faith is completed." 

Voyd
This is an unscriptural statement

Bob
Pay close attention -- 
Rom 10:9 
Faith in Christ is a work, "This is the work of God that ye believe on him whom 
he hath sent." (Jno. 6:29)

Bob
To accept Christ is to have a faith that will OBEY him by doing what he 
commanded. He is the author of eternal salvation unto all them who obey 
him.(Heb.5: 8-9) 

Yep - and as you stated - the first WORK of FAITH is to BELIEVE on Christ 
whom God the Father has sent. 
================================================== 

Voyd
Turning to the 2nd. chapter of Acts we find the Apostles preaching the dead, 
buried, and resurrected Christ. When the people realized they were guilty of 
crucifying the Lord they cried out to Peter and the rest of the Apostles, "Men and 
brethren, what shall we do?" Then Peter said unto them, "Why, there is not a thing 
in this world you can do. just believe on the Lord and you will receive the 
remission of your sins." EH? Is that what Peter said? That is what Bob would 
have said had he been the preacher there; That however, is a far cry from what the 
inspired Peter told them. He said, "Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the 
name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the 
Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)

Bob
Indeed - and perhaps it is helpful to note that the Holy Spirit follows as the 
promised blessing because once the person has believed they are in full fellowship 
with God and can therefore receive the Holy Spirit. (As I am sure Voyd will 
agree). That is going to be very useful when we get to Acts 10 and find that Peter 
goes to the unsaved preaches the entire Acts 10 message and at the end of acts 10 
we have THE HOLY SPIRIT poured out BEFORE Baptism. 
========================================================= 

Voyd
Bob needs to prove what he is simply asserting, and he cannot do so by simply 
citing passages showing that the sinner is not saved by works of man or by works of the "Old Law"

Bob
I have no text speaking of "Old Law" - you are simply quoting yourself again. 

Voyd
Let him produce one passage proving that the sinner is not saved or justified by 
the works of righteousness.
 
Bob
OK - Romans 3 
Romans 3:20 because by the works of the Law NO FLESH WILL BE 
JUSTIFIED in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of SIN. (the 
REAL LAW) 
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, 
being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who 
believe; for there is no distinction; 
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ 
Jesus; 

Voyd
His position is that the sinner is saved by faith before and without baptism. >> 

Bob
Just as we saw in Acts 10. 
======================================================= 

Voyd
Bob said: (Voyd--But remember the faith that saves is the faith that obeys.)—
As stated in the previous rebuttal - that is not the point in dispute. 

Yes Sir, That is the point in dispute. You are contending that the sinner is saved 
by FAITH ALONE, before and WITHOUT OBEDIENCE, and I am contending 
that the faith of the sinner is the faith that obeys. My position is that the sinner is 
saved by FAITH and OBEDIENCE. Your position is that the sinner is saved by 
FAITH ALONE- WITHOUT OBEDIENCE. Don't tell me "that is not the point of 
dispute."  The reading audience will know better whether you do or not. 

 Bob
As it turns out - I already know what I think. (:-> Since you have admitted that 
BELIEF is in fact WORKS you have already undone your own argument. - and is 
in fact the WORK of faith - your case has already been lost IF you base it on Faith 
that works, because you already have it at the moment of belief in Christ by your 
own admission. AND HENCE my statement above. 

Voyd
Bob says "I do not find in Heb.11:7 'by faith the sinner being warned of Christ is 
baptized into Christ to the saving of his soul'." 
Yes, but you do find that "by faith Noah being warned of God prepared an ark" 
don't you? That is my point, and you cannot successfully deny it.

Bob
As already stated - the fact that a saved person does obey God through faith is not 
in dispute (no matter how much you would like it to be). RATHER the point in 
dispute is "at what point is a person saved". You CLAIM the faith and work of 
belief that comes BEFORE Baptism - WHILE GOOD and while obedient - are 
not "enough obedience" for salvation. I claim that you are denying the scriptures 
already presented on this subject to make such a claim. It is not whether ANY 
OBEDIENCE will be there - but whether the WORK that Christ declares to exist 
when faith is exercised and belief takes place is to be accepted for what Rom 10:9 
says it is - a saving transaction. 
========================================================== 

Voyd
Bob says the sinner is saved the MOMENT he believes. Here is his exact 
statement: 
"At that moment - he is saved, forgiven, transformed (a new creation) reconciled 
to God." 
But the Bible teaches that reconciliation, forgiveness, and a new creation is IN 
Christ. (2Cor.5:17 - Eph.2: 13-16 - Col. 1: 12-14) So if the sinner is saved, 
forgiven, and reconciled the moment he believes he is saved, forgiven and 
reconciled OUT of Christ, 

Bob
You are merely rationalizing here Voyd. Scripture does not teach that people are 
OUTSIDE of Christ even though they believe in him - and REMAIN OUTSIDE 
of Christ UNITL they are baptized. You are simply making it up from the void of 
what Romans 6 does NOT say. 

Voyd
for the Bible plainly teaches that we are BAPTIZED INTO Christ. (Rom.6: 3- 4 – 
Gal. 3: 26-27) 

Bob
And does NOT say that UNTIL we engage in the public act of Baptism we are 
OUTSIDE of Christ. You are arguing from the void of what it does not say. Even 
the most casual reader will find that having the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Christ) 
poured out on you - is not the experience of those OUTSIDE of Christ. Acts 10 
utterly refutes the straw man you build from what Rom 6 does not say. 
========================================================== 

Voyd
Let me emphasize again that the Bible teaches that the sinner is "dead in 
trespasses and sin." (Eph.2:1) In order to leave the kingdom of sin (darkness) he 
must: 
1 Hear the Gospel: Rom.10:17 - 1Cor.1:21 
2 Believe in Christ: Jno. 8-24 - Heb. 11:6 
3 Repent of sins: Acts 2:38 - Acts 17:30-31 
4 Confess Christ: Acts 8:37 - Rom. 10:9 
5 Be Baptized: Rom.6:3-4 - Gal. 3:26-29 
In faith and repentance he dies to the love and practice of sin and in baptism he 
dies to the guilt and state of sin.

Concerning the above Bob made the ridiculous and false statement: 
"Step 5 can not be taken by a lost person as Paul points out in 1Cor 2 and Romans 
8. By the time we get to step 5 we are way past the point that any lost person (not 
born again, not walking in the spirit) could come to without already being born 
again " a new creation with old things passed away". 

Paul made no such point 

Bob
Actually he makes that very point in 1Cor2 and Rom 8 here - perhaps a 
refresher?? 
1Cor 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for 
they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are 
spiritually appraised. Romans 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the 
mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is 
hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not 
even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 
========================================================= 

Voyd
Paul made the point that the servants of sin had become the servants of 
righteousness by "obeying that form of doctrine which was delivered to them" 
(Rom. 6: 16-18) It is ridiculous to say they were already the children of God 
before they had obeyed 

Bob
On the contrary - IF we review the texts above carefully we find it is 
IMPOSSIBLE for them to come to obedience APART from the transformation of 
the New Birth. In fact they will not even COMPREHEND the Spiritual thrust of 
God's Word or even agree with it. 

Voyd
Salvation is in Christ, and nowhere else (Acts 4: 12) and what Paul "points out" is 
that we are baptized INTO Christ (Rom. 6: 3-4) Bob, just what do you suppose is 
the matter with you to cause you to cite Matt. 7 and make such a statement? 

Bob
Well let's actually LOOK at the text and see whether it says OBEDIENCE 
produces the TRANFORMED - GOOD tree - or whether the TRANSFORMED 
GOOD tree produces OBEDIENCE - I think that will clear it up. 
Matt 7:16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn 
bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 
17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 
18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 
20 So then, you will know them by their fruits. 
The GOOD TREE comes first THEN the GOOD fruit SHOWING that in fact the 
GOOD TREE is producing fruit. Done. 
========================================================= 

Voyd
Don't come back and cite Rom. 10: 9 again because I have already shown that the 
belief and confession in this passage is UNTO righteousness.>> 

Bob
Apparently you are still ignoring the devastating feature of Rom 10 Rom 10:9 

Bob says: "Your assertion remains unproven." 
But it so happens that I have made NO assertions. I have given you Book, 
Chapter, and Verse, setting forth the Lord's plan of salvation. I have shown that 
salvation is in Christ and that the ONLY way to get into Christ is to be baptized 
INTO Him. (Rom. 6: 3-4 - Gal.3:26-29) 

Bob
In fact you have not shown that the only way to come into contact with Christ is 
to first - (in your lost state), decide for Christ, believe in Christ, agree with His 
word and then choose to be baptized. Rather you have argued from the void of 
what Rom 6 and Gal 3 do not say - to try and make them say "No contact with 
Christ until Baptism".

Voyd
Works of man: Eph.2: 8-9 B> Works of the Old Law: Rom. 3:20 C> Works of 
God or Righteousness: Jno. 6:28-29 ... 

Bob says, "Again it appears that your assertion "Old Law" is not found in the 
text." 

Voyd<> 

Bad assumption - rather you should assume that all of Heb 8 does not contain the 
phrase "old law" nor does the 13th verse. You simply make it up. You are making 
a mistake by citing a chapter and verse - but then quoting yourself. 

======================================================= 

Voyd
In Rom. 4: 1-3 Paul affirms that Abraham was not saved by works and quotes 
Gen.15: 26 to prove it. In Jas.2: 21-23 James affirms that Abraham was saved by 
WORKS and quotes the same Old Testament Scripture (Gen. 15:26) to prove it. 
Did these two Apostles contradict each other? GOD FORBID! >


Bob says: "Actually - James 2 does not say "Abraham was saved by Works". He 
says that Abraham was justified by works." 

Yes, and Paul says Abraham was NOT JUSTIFIED by works (Rom. 4:2) 
Now are these two inspired men contradicting each other? Paul was talking about 
the works of the law and James was talking about the works of obedience. 

Bob
But having that bit of clarity does not relieve you of your error in saying that 
Abraham was "Saved by works" - another quote of you - not of James 2. I am 
appealing for accuracy here - stick with the text when trying to quote it. 
======================================================== 

Voyd
Bob says, "By faith only"- James says, "NOT by faith only." 
You take your choice. I'll take James. He was inspired 
Bob says "I'll take Paul - He was inspired. What a silly position - we have to take 
them both." 
Quite correct Bob. We have to take them both, and I was not saying we had to 
choose between Paul and James

Bob
It was hard to see that from the way you were posting. 
======================================================= 

Voyd
2. Acts chapters 10 & 11 is a record of the conversion of Cornelius. He was told 
to send for Peter, "Who shall tell thee words whereby thou and thy house shall be 
saved." Peter commenced those words by telling Cornelius, "in every nation he 
that feareth him and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:35) 
At the close of Peter's sermon he commanded them to be baptized in the name of 
the Lord. 
Bob says,"!! another mistake. Cornelius AND his family RECEIVE the 
outpouring of the Holy Spirit BEFORE being Baptized." 
Yes, and they received the outpouring of the Spirit before they heard the words,  

Bob
Wrong again. Don't argue from the void of what the text does not say - it's a 
mistake. As you reference the detailed account in Acts 10 AFTER Peter's sermon 
in Acts 10:34-43 Peter's sermon in which we find the Gospel - 10:44-46 the 
unbaptized gentiles are filled with the Spirit of Christ the Holy Spirit - 10:47-48 
AND THEN - Baptized This is utterly devastating to your position because it 
takes the Acts 2 sequence and PROVES that FELLOWSHIP with God - is NOT 
predicated on FIRST being Baptized. Had you just noticed this one point alone – 
you might have saved yourself the trouble. 

Voyd
"whereby thou and thy house shall be saved." Peter said the outpouring of the  
Spirit came "as I began to speak" (Acts 11: 15) Before he had spoken the words 
that would save them

Bob
Classic error in arguing from the void of what the text does not say - not only do 
you get an error that can't be reconciled with scripture regarding Baptism, you 
also have an error in the Acts 10 account that can't be reconciled with Acts 11 
since you stretch to get Acts 11 to say they were baptized BEFORE Peter's 
sermon - where Acts 10 CLEARLY shows the full DETAILS - and shows they 
were baptized AFTER the sermon (though possibly Peter had much more to say 
and this is what is referenced in chapter 11). In any case - you are sacrificing the 
scripture at the altar of your own defense. Stick with the text and abandon the 
void of what Acts 11 is not saying. This concludes my 3rd denial. It has been a 
treat - I will now work on the affirmative. It will take a few days. (Hopefully it 
will be short so we can expand with the iterations)