BALLARD/STROM DEBATE ON BAPTISM

 
 
 The Scriptures teach that water baptism to a believing penitent is for the remission 
of his sins.
 
Affirm: Voyd N. Ballard 
Deny: Bob Strom
 
Strom's SECOND denial to Ballard's second affirmative:

NOTE: All Scripture quotations are from the NASB unless otherwise specified.

Capital letters are for emphasis--Not shouting. 
**************************************************************** 
Voyd 
passage that might be introduced showing man is saved by faith. But I showed 
that in every instance it is a faith that moves man to obey God.

Bob
As stated in my previous rebuttal - the issue is not whether faith is the root of 
obedience. The issue is whether obedience is the root of faith. Does baptism stand 
between the lost and God so that forgiveness/reconciliation and the New Birth are 
not available until after (or mid) Baptism.

The mere act of accepting Christ is ITSELF obedience - faith is completed – 
salvation is accomplished (as Rom 10:9 states).

Voyd 
him whom he hath sent." (Jno. 6:29)


Bob
Actually I gave this quote from Rom 3...

Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law?  Of 
works? No, but by a law of faith. 
28 For we maintain that a man is JUSTIFIED by faith apart from works of the 
Law. 
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of 
Gentiles also, 
30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised BY FAITH and the 
uncircumcised through FAITH is one.
 
You mention "justified by faith alone" and by that I have assumed you meant 
"justified by faith apart from works". If that is NOT what you mean - please let 
me know. If it IS what you mean - the text above remains to be answered.

Notice the text deals with BOTH faith AND works. It is not merely saying "faith 
is needed".

In my view - this fits the instant of salvation. When the lost rebellious human 
yields to God. We can not claim our own works has commending us to God nor 
of proving us to be worthy of anything.

Voyd 
and he will NOT produce the passage for no such passage can be found anywhere 
in the Bible! He introduced some passages in the Roman and Galatian letters 
showing we are saved by faith, but none that says we are saved by faith alone.

Bob
Again - the text above does not merely say "faith is involved somehow in 
salvation" rather it specifically addresses your statement in saying 
"28 For we maintain that a man is JUSTIFIED by faith apart from works"
 
Voyd<>
 
Bob
I find that assertion to avoid the text in question. You can not merely assume your 
point - you have to show it.

Voyd 
His position is that the sinner is saved by faith before and without baptism. This is 
what Bob needs to prove. He is wasting his time arguing that the sinner is saved 
by faith, for this I believe as strongly as he dare express it. 

Bob
And so the text's I provided do not merely state "man is saved by faith" RATHER 
they point out that WORKS are not a part of that instant of salvation. The text 
ITSELF deals with BOTH faith AND works. It does not simply say "faith is in 
there some place".

Eph 2:8 THAT not of WORKS

quoted in my first rebuttal. .again repeated here.

1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ 
was publicly portrayed as crucified? 
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by 
the WORKS of the Law, OR by hearing with FAITH? 
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by 
the flesh? 
4 Did you suffer so many things in vain if indeed it was in vain? 
5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among 
you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Again faith is CONTRASTED with works. showing that HEARING WITH 
FAITH (upper case used for emphasis not volume) is contrasted against works.

Voyd 
saves is the faith that obeys.

Bob
As stated in the previous rebuttal - that is not the point in dispute. There is no 
question that faith is the source of obedience and that faith that works is faith that 
actually produces outward action. The point in dispute is that faith IS faith EVEN 
though it has not yet produced some specific action of your choosing (due to lack 
of time or opportunity presumably).

My position is that FAITH and Salvation come BEFORE the resulting FRUIT of 
that faith and salvation (in this case the specific work - Baptism).

Your point seems to be that faith does not really exist until works are done FIRST 
and even more specifically THE work of Baptism. But works outside of faith - are 
pointless.

Your challenge is either to show that no faith counts for salvation until works of 
Baptism join it - or that is not really faith until one is Baptized.

I have maintained that the mere ACT of CHOOSING to repent is itself work and 
shows faith to be real (Romans 10:9, Eph 2:8) and does ITSELF result in 
salvation.

You seem to agree with this to some extent as we see below --

Voyd 
him whom he hath sent." (Jno. 6:29)

faith the sinner being warned of Christ is baptized into Christ to the saving of his 
soul'." Yes, but you do find that "by faith Noah being warned of God prepared an 
ark" don't you? That is my point. 

Bob
You provided the Heb 11 reference and then quoted yourself instead of the text - I 
was merely pointing that out.
 
The Heb 11 reference does show faith producing works (in this case an 
unbaptized saint engaging in works other than baptism via faith that is real even 
though technically not baptized).

I think we both agree that faith does produce works. 

Voyd 
MOVED him to obey God, and the sinner's faith must move him to obey, for 
Christ being made perfect, "became the author of eternal salvation unto all them 
that OBEY HIM." (Heb.5:9) 

Bob
I have no objection to the claim that real genuine born-again, reconciled children 
of God WILL bring forth fruits of obedience in harmony with that inner state 
ALREADY established. As I stated in my first rebuttal.

As Christ points out in Matt 7 the FRUIT is the OUTWARD evidence that an 
INNER CHANGE has ALREADY taken place.

My point is that the instant of salvation is based not on man's ability to work in 
anyway - but on God's ability to save, to draw lost humanity and God providing 
lost-depraved-humanity the ability to merely "choose". Man then chooses God – 
chooses to yield to the "drawing" of Grace.  At that moment - he is saved, 
forgiven, transformed (a new creation) reconciled to God.

Voyd 
humanity can both believe AND choose to follow Christ in baptism and even 
enter into baptism while still lost, depraved and in rebellion against God.

Voyd's Reply: 
Bob, you misunderstand. I am not contending that the lost sinner can be baptized 
and saved "in rebellion against God." The Bible teaches that the sinner is "dead in 
trespasses and sin." (Eph.2:1) In order to leave the kingdom of sin (darkness) he 
must: 
1 Hear the Gospel: Rom.10:17 - 1Cor.1:21 
2 Believe in Christ: Jno. 8-24 - Heb. 11:6 
3 Repent of sins: Acts 2:38 - Acts 17:30-31 
4 Confess Christ: Acts 8:37 - Rom. 10:9 
5 Be Baptized: Rom.6:3-4 - Gal. 3:26-29 
In faith and repentance he dies to the love and practice of sin and in baptism he 
dies to the guilt and state of sin.

Bob
I have numbered the steps above for clarity.

My point is that of Matt 7 - good fruit only comes from a tree that is already good.  
Step 5 can not be taken by a lost person as Paul points out in 1Cor 2 and Romans 
8. By the time we get to step 5 we are way past the point that any lost person (not 
born again, not walking in the spirit) could come to without already being born 
again " a new creation with old things passed away".

My point is also that BEFORE step 5 - Step 4 has Rom 10:9 declaring you to be 
saved.

Actually this is the crux of the issue in the debate - it would be wise to spend our 
time here. You seem to have multiple-salvations occurring for the lost here and 
we need to sort them out as this entire debate is over what exactly happens at the 
moment the lost rebellious person is 'saved'.

I have maintained that a person hears and chooses to believe they are instantly 
saved = (forgiven/transformed/reconciled). I believe the text of Romans 10:9 you 
reference above - points this out.

(I don't believe in once saved always saved nor do I belief that true living faith 
will fail to produce further works of obedience besides those I mention above).
 
Rom 10:9 
in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be SAVED; 
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the 
mouth he confesses, resulting in SALVATION.

Voyd 
Now despite the fact that I challenged Bob to produce even one passage that 
teaches the sinner is saved by faith only, which he did NOT and CANNOT he 
offers some passages in the Roman and Galatian letters which teach that salvation 
is not by the works of the Old Law, and then has the audacity to claim they teach 
that "salvation is initiated at the moment of faith.

Bob
While I don't recall using the term "Old Law" nor of quoting a verse that used that 
term (your term??) - I do maintain that salvation begins at the moment of faith – 
when we turn to God. This is a generic statement about the "one Gospel" of Gal 
1:6. The only one mankind has been given.

Voyd 
A little later he states we are saved by grace. Now Bob you can't have it both 
ways. If we are saved by faith alone grace is excluded and if we are saved by 
grace alone then faith is excluded

Bob
A bifurcation without substance - a distinction without a difference.

There is NOTHING in the plan of salvation and Grace that is mutually exclusive 
to faith - RATHER faith ITSELF is a GIFT of Grace "To EACH man has been 
GIVEN a measure of faith".

Your assertion remains unproven.

And so I maintain still - "we are saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH and that 
NOT of yourselves - NOT of WORKS". Salvation (the INDIVIDUAL transaction 
between God and a given person begins the moment that person CHOOSES to 
accept - in faith) Nothing about that violates Grace SINCE "it is the GRACE 
(Goodness) of God that LEADS you to repentance".

Voyd 
...Furthermore I have shown that man's faith is the door of entrance into the grace 
of God. "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace where in we 
stand." Rom. 5:2

Bob
Are you making my point or yours?? I have been maintaining that it is the 
moment of faith that man is saved.

==================================================== 
Voyd 
Now for some more Affirmative arguments.

1. There are three classes of works set forth in the N.T. 
A> Works of man: Eph.2: 8-9 
B> Works of the Old Law: Rom. 3:20 
C> Works of God or Righteousness: Jno. 6:28-29

Bob
I suppose we could start a debate where I deny some of the above as well.

A. "Works of man"?? AS in works apart from faith or apart from God? IN that 
case I observe that in Eph 2:8-10 we are told the WORKs being mentioned as 
those "prepared beforehand BY GOD that WE should walk in them". They are 
God's works that we are to perform as He ordains. So we do them (as in the case 
of all the works in your list above) but they are 'done via the fact that "It is No 
longer I who live but Christ who lives in me".

B. In the case of Rom 3:20 - here is the affirmation of Paul of that Law of God

Rom 3:20 
sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.  ... 
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, 
we establish the Law.

Again it appears that your assertion "Old Law" is not found in the text. It also 
appears that the law of Rom 3 is "established" through faith AND that it is God's 
authoritative standard that still defines what sin is. (Paul again makes the point in 
Romans 7 and goes on to quote that law of God).

Voyd<>

Bob
More precisely "man can not be saved by his own works or by the works of any 
LAW". - Let's see Paul say it 

"For by the Works of THE Law shall NO FLESH be JUSTIFIED". Rom 3:20

Hard to miss. And this is the same "THE LAW" that we find in the same chapter 
vs 31 contrary, we establish the Law.

C. Works done in Christ - as we see in Eph 2:8-10 and in Rom 3:31, 2:13-16 etc 
are done by us - with Christ in us doing them.
 
Voyd 
him whom he hath sent." (Jno. 6:29)

Bob
Making my point or yours?? I have said that in waiting for the work of Baptism 
your model is way too late. Man's faith is already manifest in choosing the work 
of accepting Christ.

Voyd 
quotes Gen.15: 26 to prove it. 
In Jas.2: 21-23 James affirms that Abraham was saved by WORKS and quotes the 
same Old Testament Scripture (Gen. 15:26) to prove it. Did these two Apostles 
contradict each other? GOD FORBID! 

Bob
Actually - James 2 does not say "Abraham was saved by Works". He says that 
Abraham was justified by works. In this way there is complete agreement as Paul 
says "By GRACE are you SAVED through FAITH and THAT NOT of 
yourselves NOT of WORKS".

Justification is a legal term - and shows that Abraham is judged by his obedience 
at some point. This is not a statement saying that Abraham was not converted 
until he offered up his son. No lost person would follow God to such a point so 
they could THEN be saved according to Romans 8 and 1Cor 2.
 
Voyd 
works of the Old Law and James was talking about the works of righteousness or 
obedience. 
"By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:" (Heb. 11: 17) 
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his 
son upon the altar.....Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by 
faith only." (Jas.2: 21-24) Bob says, "By faith only"- James says, "NOT by faith 
only." You take your choice. I'll take James. He was inspired

Bob
I'll take Paul - He was inspired. What a silly position - we have to take them both. 
James is NOT telling us that AFTER offering his son Abraham was born again.  
NOR is James telling us that ANY lost person would ACT in such GREAT 
FAITH. Abraham WAS ALREADY SAVED - and the FRUIT was his act of 
offering His son - GREAT FAITH such as this is the FRUIT of being born again 
– it is NOT the workings of a lost man in rebellion against God.

Your attempt in using James 2 to support your idea that a man is NOT reconciled 
to God - NOT born again - NOT forgiven until doing - such a work - as we see 
Abraham doing - falls flat. No such attempt is made by James OR Paul or any 
Bible writer.
 
Voyd 
2. Acts chapters 10 & 11 is a record of the conversion of Cornelius. He was told 
to send for Peter, "Who shall tell thee words whereby thou and thy house shall be 
saved." Peter commenced those words by telling Cornelius, "in every nation he 
that feareth him and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:35) 
At the close of Peter's sermon he commanded them to be baptized in the name of 
the Lord.

Bob
Ooops!! another mistake.
 
Cornelius AND his family RECEIVE the outpouring of the Holy Spirit BEFORE 
being Baptized. Acts 2 tells us that forgiveness occurs BEFORE the person 
receives such an outpouring from God. 

Point and match.

Voyd 
3. No person can be saved without being in relationship with God, Christ and the 
Holy Spirit, but it is only through hearing the gospel, believing it, repenting of 
sins, confessing Christ, and being baptized that one enters into this relationship. 

Bob
Your own example above refutes your claim that we are not in fellowship with 
God until after we are baptized.

Voyd 
all nations, baptizing them INTO the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I 
call upon Bob to cite just one verse that tells any other way to enter this 
relationship with God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

Bob
Ooops! Mistake again. 
 
Matt 28 tells to MAKE disciples THEN to baptize - these guys are baptizing 
people who are FIRST made into disciples.

Voyd 
4. Rom.6: 16-18 says the Roman brethren were the servants of sin, but they 
obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine "being then made free from sin, ye 
became the servants of Christ." Anyone not looking the other way can see that 
salvation is not by faith alone, but by obedience.

Bob
And you have already established that the mere WORK of BELIEVING is 
obedience - and IS working the works of God. Again your own argument is 
working against your intended conclusion.

Voyd 
5. Bob will agree that one cannot be saved without the blood of Christ.  That 
blood must be contacted, Since His blood was shed in His death, one must contact 
His death in order to contact His blood. Rom. 6:3-4 says, "Know ye not, that so 
many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? One 
cannot be saved out of the blood of Christ, but one cannot contact that blood 
outside the death of Christ, and one cannot get into the death of Christ except in 
baptism.
 
Bob
There is no text that says we can not GET to the blood of Christ except by 
Baptism - that is not found in Rom 6. JUST as 1Cor 11 shows us that the Lord's 
table 'shows His DEATH until He comes" so Rom 6 tells us that the public sign of 
baptism is a symbol of Christ's death - but NEITHER of these becomes a barrier 
to faith or salvation - RATHER the one who HEARS and confesses - is saved. 

6. Voyd 
..."The sinner being warned of God...MOVED with fear and was baptized INTO 
Christ." Bob said he did not see this in Heb. 11:6 - Well, it was because he wasn't 
looking! 

Bob
Indeed - you are simply quoting yourself there. The text does not contain what 
you hoped it would.

Voyd 
answer, You danced all around it, but you did not answer it. It is a simple question 
that can be answered Yes or NO. Here it is again. Please give me a YES or a NO.  
Can one be saved without doing right?

Bob
Accepting Christ IS doing right according to your statement above - so I would 
answer no -. IT IS working the works of God to ACCEPT Christ - faith alone 
producing the WORK of ACCEPTING Christ.

Voyd 
him whom he hath sent." (Jno. 6:29)

Bob
Well said Pastor Ballard.