BALLARD/STROM DEBATE ON BAPTISM

 
 
The Scriptures teach that water baptism to a believing penitent is for the remission 
of his sins.

Affirm: Voyd N. Ballard 
Deny: Bob Strom

Voyd: 
1. The gospel of Christ is the "power of God unto salvation" (Rom.1:16) In order 
for it to bring a sinner "unto salvation" it must be preached. Paul said it pleased 
God to save them that believe by the preaching of this gospel. (1Cor.1:21) 
The preaching of the gospel (and nothing else) produces faith.  (Rom.10:17) 
Faith is the substance of things hoped for. (Heb.11:1) 
The word "substance" in this passage means "foundation" So then faith is the 
foundation of God's plan of salvation. Repentance and baptism will avail nothing 
without faith. 

I believe as strongly as any man dare express it that the sinner is saved by faith—
But there is not one place anywhere in the Bible where anyone was ever said to be 
saved or justified by his faith until that faith acted in obedience to God. 

I want it clearly understood that I will accept in advance every passage that Bob 
may cite that says man is saved by faith; but I challenge him in the very beginning 
to produce one (just one) passage that teaches that man is saved by faith ALONE.

Bob: 
You are correct to start with the foundations of the Gospel. I think this is the key 
to our differences on this topic. As for this point - I agree that we are saved by 
faith. I do not agree that lost humanity can both believe AND choose to follow 
Christ in baptism and even enter into baptism while still lost, depraved and in 
rebellion against God.

As for passages that indicate that that the transactions of salvation (being born-
again, transformed, forgiven, adopted) is initiated at the moment of faith -- rather 
than deferred until Baptism.

Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been 
manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who 
believe; for there is no distinction; 
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ 
Jesus; 

Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of 
works? No, but by a law of faith. 
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of 
Gentiles also, 
30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the 
uncircumcised through faith is one. 

Galatians 3:1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes 
Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by 
the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by 
the flesh? 
4 Did you suffer so many things in vain if indeed it was in vain? 
5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among 
you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
 
Voyd:
The faith that saves is the faith that obeys. (Heb.5:8-9).

 Bob: 
There are many acts of obedience in the course of a Christian's lifetime as Heb 5 
notes.
 
The debate is not over the fact that saving faith - will obey - the question is 
WHEN is a person saved - and WHAT act of obedience is the point at which a 
person is born again, forgiven, transformed, saved.
 
To open the door, turn from self - submit to God's knocking on the door of the 
heart - is an act of faith in itself - without any outward movement. IT is an act of 
the will, of the heart. 

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your 
heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the 
mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Voyd:  
2. Because man could not save himself, neither device a plan by which he could 
be saved and because of God's great love for sinful man He "gave his only 
begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have 
everlasting life." (John 3:16) This is the grace of God, and this grace has appeared 
to all men (Titus 2:11-14) However, all men are not saved by this grace because 
they have not appropriated it unto themselves.

 Bob: 
Agreed. 
 
Voyd: 
3. God has always done for man what man could not do for himself, and by the 
same token God has never done for man what he could do for himself. God, 
through his grace for mankind provided a way or plan by which man could be 
saved. This plan provides for man to leave sin and come into the saving grace of 
God. Please note in Titus 2:11-12 that the grace of God teaches us to deny 
(forsake or leave) ungodliness and worldly lust, and live for God. This requires 
action on the part of man, thus Paul says, "For by grace are ye saved through 
faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the gift of God: Not of works lest any man 
should boast." (Eph. 2: 8-9) Man cannot be saved by his own works, nor can he be 
saved out of the grace of God. 

Bob: 
Agreed - nothing man does can save him. 
 
Voyd: 
4. Salvation is God's part and faith is man's part and I have already shown that it 
must be a faith that moves man to obey God. Once again, I challenge any man to 
show one place anywhere in the Bible where any person was ever said to be 
justified by faith until that faith moved him to obey God. 

Bob: 
Agreed.
 
Is the choice to turn from sin and open the door to Christ - the "act" you are 
thinking of? "If any one hears my voice and opens the door..." Rom 3:20

Or is it the obedience of confessing with our mouth and believing with our heart?

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and 
in your heart, that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that 
God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the 
mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 
11 For the Scripture says, WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE 
DISAPPOINTED. 
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord 
of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 
13 for WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED. 
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will 
they believe in Him whom they have not heard?  And how will they hear without 
a preacher? 
15 How will they preach unless they are sent?  Just as it is written, HOW 
BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF 
GOOD THINGS! 
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, LORD, WHO 
HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? 
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; 

Voyd: 
5. Bob will admit that no one can be saved out of the grace of God. Faith is the 
door, or entrance into that grace. Paul said "we have access by faith into this grace 
wherein we stand." (Rom.5: 2) Remember, the faith that saves is the faith that 
obeys, so we are not saved by faith alone or faith only, but by faith and obedience, 
thus by faith and obedience we enter into the grace of God.

Bob: 
Actually - as you have already noted "By grace you are SAVED through faith and 
THAT not of works". Now you are arguing "we are not saved by faith alone - but 
by faith AND obedience" - and more than that - instead of endorsing the Romans 
2 concept "It is the goodness of God that leads you to repentance" you are arguing 
that we do not enter into grace until we muster both our own faith and obedience  
I would think that the formulate in Eph 2 "By grace you are SAVED through faith 
and that not of works lest anyone should boast -..." places us in a sequence where 
salvation occurs in the transaction of faith - "not of works" and is followed by 
"Good works that God has created - that we should walk in them" in that saved 
condition. 

Voyd:
To be in the grace of God is to be in Christ and Bob will admit that no one can be 
saved out of Christ. Thus Paul is saying, "we have access by faith into Christ." In 
Rom. 6:3 Paul says we are baptized into Christ. Faith and baptism are joined 
together as being essential to entering into Christ where salvation is. 

No man can be saved without believing in Christ, but you cannot believe in Christ 
without believing what he said, and He said, "He that believeth and is baptized 
shall be saved." (Mark 16: 16) This proves my proposition.


Bob: 
The same logic that insists the entire sequence of Mark 16:16 must be 
accomplished before we are forgiven/born-again - will require us to insist that we 
are not forgiven or born-again until we die -when it reads Mark 13:13 or Matt 24:

Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved." 

Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one 
who has endured to the end who will be saved."

Mark 13:13 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who 
endures to the end, he will be saved." 

Voyd: 
6. Now Bob will be wasting his time and ink to come back and quote verses of 
Scripture that teaches we are saved by faith, for I repeat again, I believe we are 
saved by faith, but it is a faith that moves us to obey. 

 Bob: 
On that point we both agree. 
 
Voyd:
God said, "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved 
with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house..." (Heb. 11:7 and "By faith 
the sinner being warned by Christ is baptized into Christ to the saving of his 
soul."

Bob: 
I do not find that quote as the text of Heb 11:7. 

Voyd: 
7. In closing this, my first affirmative, I ask Bob this question: "Can one be saved 
without doing right?" Don't forget to answer it in your first rebuttal to this 
affirmative.

Bob: 
I agree that the act of "opening the door" and believing with the heart and 
confessing with the mouth - all are actions of obedience. But I do not agree that 
that a person who does believe with hearing and who does open the door is NOT 
born-again, or saved or forgiven, or transformed - but in his lost depraved state – 
must also agree and choose Baptism before "all things become new" and he is 
transformed to newness of life.

The Bible tells us "he who endures until the end shall be saved" Mark 13:13 but 
this is not telling us that lost humanity must work it's way to the end and endure 
and finally after all that - it will be forgiven and saved - any more than Mark 
16:16 is telling us that lost humanity must believe and follow Christ in baptism in 
it's depraved lost rebellious state before it is finally transformed, forgiven and 
born again. In fact Romans 8, and 1Cor 2 tell us that lost depraved humanity CAN 
NOT comply with God's will UNTIL transformed.
 
 Bob 
 Cary, NC